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KUART, September Issue, 2011, Published by Jiangxi Fine Art Press, p. 84
The New Utopia under the Red Flag - Zhu Wei’s Comment on Contemporary Ink-and-Wash Painting
Journalist: Yu Haiyuan
KUART (Hereinafter referred to as “Ku”): It seemed that you did not have a clear concept about “contemporary art” when you began to create ink-and-wash paintings with distinct personal style in the early 1990s, and the ink-and-wash painting circle was relatively conservative, so were you sure about what you were doing then?
Zhu Wei (Hereinafter referred as “Zhu”): No, I was not. Starting from nothing, everyone was groping then; but we all felt that something was going to happen, or some certain paintings should be painted. No one mentioned contemporary art frequently, and the guys who do so now were mostly not heard at that time. Some people began to explore the realm of contemporary ink-and-wash paintings. For example, Wei Dong and I began to deal with figures while Gu Wenda, who went to America later, researched landscapes and ideas then. Besides, there were also some painters who were dealing with rice paper, and I did not know exactly what they were doing or enjoy their works. I was sober to know that only a few artists, or several of them, were engaging in drawing figures of contemporary ink-and-wash paintings. What they were doing was inheriting and improving this kind of painting and helping it join the stream of contemporary art; while others were trying to make the painting contemporary on the basis of negating it by revoluting rice paper or changing the painting material.
Artists, including those oil painters, were not sure at that time, so they painted carefully, cautiously and slowly, spending much of their time waiting and looking.
Ku: Have you come across any difficulties or problems when expressing yourself and your surrounding realities with the traditional technique of “fine brushwork without outlining”?
Zhu: One of the advantages of this technique is it can downgrade the importance of lines which is most emphasized in ink-and-wash paintings to accentuate the design of figures and narration function of the picture. Wei Dong, Xu Lei and I have persisted in using it till now. But it also has a deficiency: the lines are too weak, for which the requirement for colors is increased. Therefore, as you can see, our ink-and-wash paintings are all bright in color and look dazzling.
Ku: In the early 1990s, there was a trend of revolution on ink-and-wash paintings, such as “experimental ink-and-wash paintings”, which was nothing more than directing the creation of such paintings with the theories of Western modern and post-modern art. However, you had never given up the traditional painting techniques, channeling a more personalized way. Then what made you so resolute and refuse to follow the trend blindly?
Zhu: As I have talked about, the creation of our contemporary oil paintings began from the early 1990s or the late 1980s, taking Western modern and post-modern artistic theories as the guideline. Facts have shown that these oil painters achieved great success. However, these theories are not applicable to our practice of making ink-and-wash paintings contemporary, because the theorists and critics who put out them did not know what ink-and-wash paintings were at all, and these theories were created for oil paintings, dramas, operas and classic ballets: it was not their duty or obligation to propose something for Chinese art. Therefore, it seems that the Western artistic theories are not fully applicable to ink-and-wash paintings, just like a traditional Chinese dish will taste bad if it is cooked in a western way. Thus we must persist in our own painting techniques and apply them in making our works contemporary. From then to now I always believe that the notions and theories of contemporary art and contemporary ink-and-wash paintings, which evolved from our own traditional culture with thousands of years of history, have never appeared: they lag behind. Having no applicable theories and no time to wait, we can only make a trial ourselves without any previous experience for support or reference.
Ku: The design of figures in your paintings is very special. Then where is it from? Have you protected yourself to it?
Zhu: People have been fully fed up with the great narratives as well as the works themed after glorious revolution during the Cultural Revolution. Consequently, they began to focus on individuals, personality and specific person after the implementation of the reform and opening policy. I am also a person, so some of the figures in my paintings have been endowed with my own image: others may be not willing to appear in my works. Indeed what I have done is to return to the tradition further. A lot of ancient Chinese classical paintings have chosen common people, such as the neighbors, young men or young ladies, as the figures, while few of the painters then painted for celebrities, emperors or eunuchs.
Ku: Is the design of the figures based fully on the impression of picture? Or does it imply some cultural metaphor?
Zhu: During painting, I concentrated fully on the impression given by the pictures, and I did not realize the metaphor and cultural connation the pictured carried until they had been finished. I am not sure whether I could create them if I had taken the expression of these things as my purpose.
Ku: Your “Sketch No.4” created in 2002 has impressed me very much. I learnt that it was your work as soon as I saw it, although there was only half of someone’s back in it. How did you acquire such intense personality?
Zhu: The main themes of oil paintings then were individuals and oneself, so I thought that these could also be applied to ink-and-wash paintings. Facts showed that my idea could not only be realized but also succeed. No one had dealt with ink-and-wash paintings in such way before I did, so I made a start.
Ku: Your paintings are fairly beautiful, but there are also something cruel covered under such beauty. Have you expected that?
Zhu: They beauty you have seen is brought by the whole painting. As you said just now, what hides behind are the description of the cruel reality, or the painfulness. My 20 years of painting career can be divided into two parts. In the first half of it I was a narrator or story-teller. I expressed much and I was eager to make myself understand, so my paintings then, such as the series of “The Story of Beijing”, “Sweet Life” and “New Positions of the Brocade Battle” created in 1993, as well as the series of “China Diary”, “Go West”, “Supreme Treatise on Moral Retribution” and “Diary of the Sleepwalker” painted in 1996, were more like serial novels with pictures. I began to emphasize the artistic conception, or implication of ink-and-wash paintings from 2002 and 2003. Then the pictures became succinct and some of them were extremely concise, such as “Great Water” and “Vernal Equinox” made in 2003, “Utopia” in 2005 and “Two Red Flags” in 2008.
Although the pictures have been changed, I am still focusing on the painfulness, frustrations and indifference one have to face in reality, as well as my question about truth, kindness and beauty.
My motive, basis and passion of painting lie in the concentration on the situation and changes of people under different circumstances, just like a rock singer who can only roar out when he has to release his anger and emotion.
Ku: The title of many of your works show that you are sentimental like a traditional man of letters, while the works themselves tell us that such sentiment is only a kind of excuse or cover used to express your doubt and irony towards the reality. Do you think you are a literator?
Zhu: There is no literators now, and what is common are people with a literator’s sentiment: I am among them.
Tradition is formed by gradual accumulation. Each day in the history was new, with something contemporary and advanced then. Therefore negating tradition means denying the later contemporariness and advancement.
Ku: How do you integrate traditional Chinese literators’ interest with contemporary artists’ concern on reality, which seem contrary to each other?
Zhu: I am sorry to say I have never done so, because it, just like asking a dead person to drink with you, is impossible. What we have done, at best, is studying the ancient people. As I have mentioned in another article, after we discovered the chimes made in Han Dynasty, someone made up some music applicable to the instrument. Everyone knows that there was no musical staff or numbered musical notation in that age, so it is impossible for the music then to be handed down in a written way. If it was transmitted orally, it would change a lot and lose its original nature. Therefore, what they did was introducing a fake to the audience and cheating them. It is not serious of them to take something made up into an authentic one.
Ku: Many artists, especially those engaging in ink-and-wash paintings, saw restriction, mode and style rather than beneficial things while retrospecting the tradition, so they shifted to video or installations for innovation. Then it is rather difficult to innovate while persisting in the tradition. What is your opinion?
Zhu: To achieve that, artists, especially ink-and-wash painters, have to be patient and endure loneliness. Even if creating contemporary ink-and-wash paintings required much skill as well as savvy.
It is easy to draw with traditional ink-and-wash painting techniques and modern ideas: just paint the reality you have seen and understood. However, you can never create a work if you always want to make something queer and uncommon.
Ku: Some artists have said that what we have now are only problems on contemporary art but not those on ink-and-wash paintings themselves. Do you agree?
Zhu: Nonsense. Contemporary must be realized by specific artistic forms such as painting, sculpture, installation, performance art, video and sound, and the problems you come across when depicting the reality and expressing your ideas are just the problems on contemporary art. We all like nutritious foods, and the nutrition must be taken in through eating vegetables, meat and seafood. Nutrition is not concrete and cannot be cooked and served on a plate. The same goes for contemporary art.
Ku: We can expect that foreign critics will never give up the opportunity to discuss your works from a political view, which may go against your original intention. What is your opinion on such misreading?
Zhu: The status quo of China’s society is just like this: we Chinese have taken it for granted that the slogans have been posted everywhere. However, foreigners have not been accustomed to such phenomenon so they are rather sensitive to them. They have paid no attention to KFC and McDonalds in my paintings: they have grown up with them so they will feel it is nothing special. Now we are still living in a society full of power politics which even appears in the artistic works. Therefore, I can tolerate such misreading. Of course, an artist using too many political symbols will be considered grandstanding and incompetent in creation.
Ku: Why did you take “red flags”, which had been appeared in “Utopia” series, as an independent theme in your later paintings?
Zhu: I did it considering from the aspect of techniques. “Clothes painted by Cao Zhongda appear wet, and belts drawn by Wu Daozi seem floating with wind”, and we can also apply the ancient technique to expressing modern subject of matters, seeing who can do better. Red flags are common to people and may not arouse any emotion now. However, they have never been depicted comfortably.
Ku: It seems that you have slowed down recently. Are you controlling your pace of creation on purpose?
Zhu: Yes, I am. Now I will draw 6 paintings a year. I think that I should paint less without new ideas. Most of my time is spent in calligraphy.
Ku: From your works created this year, we see that you have tried something new in both techniques and expression. What changes have been made in your creative ideas and painting techniques?
Zhu: I am indeed trying, but I have made few changes.
Ku: You are a painter, sculptor, writer and director. What kind of common pursuit is leading your interest?
Zhu: I am an ink-and-wash painter, so ink-and-wash painting is everything for me. Besides painting, ancient painters would also play the zither, write poems and essays, or even talk about various theories as followers of rich people. Contemporary painters have no chance to do those things, but we can do something the ancient people could not do. For example, in my spare time, I also make woodcuts, create sculptures in the factory, write columns for artistic magazines and shoot films for rock bands. However, all of those must be based on and reflect ink-and-wash paintings.
Ku: You have done many other things besides painting in these years. What will you concentrate on then?
Zhu: I will concentrate on calligraphy and ink-and-wash paintings. As an ink-and-wash painter in such age, I have got mature in both of my thoughts and skill, so I am expecting to create some outstanding works.
《库艺术》江西美术出版社2011年9月刊p.84
红旗下的新乌托邦－朱伟谈当代水墨创作
采访记者：于海元
库艺术（以下简称“库”）：九十年代初，当你开始创作带有明显个人风格的水墨作品时，应该还没有明确的“当代艺术”这个概念，水墨圈也相对保守，当时对自己做的事有把握吗？
朱伟（以下简称“朱”）：没把握。当时大家都在摸索，都是从零开始，但都觉得有事情要发生，或者说有画要画。当时也没人张嘴闭嘴地把当代艺术挂在嘴上，现在老提当代艺术的当时基本没这人。水墨画方面有一些人开始探索，在人物方面有我和魏东，在山水和观念制作上有谷文达，后来他去美国活动了。还有一些折腾宣纸的，我基本上不知道他们在干什么，也不看他们的作品。当时我很清醒，在水墨当代化的人物创作方面参与的人不多，就几个。这几个人是在继承和改进水墨画，使它能够进入当代艺术的这一潮流中去。其他人基本上是在否定水墨画的基础上，想通过折腾宣纸，或者说，从材料载体上使它当代化。
就是因为大家都没把握，包括画油画的那些人，大家当时才把画画得那么认真，那么仔细，那么慢。多半时间是在观望。
库：在用“没骨工笔”这种传统技法来表达自己与周遭现实的过程中，技术上有没有遇到什么障碍或是问题？
朱：“没骨画法”有一个好处，就是能让水墨画最讲究的线稍微退后一步，而更加注重人物的造型，加强了画面的叙事功能，直到现在我和魏东，还有徐累一直在这么画。这么画有一个不足之处，就是线弱了，对色彩的需求加强了，所以就像最后大家看到的我们这几个人的水墨画，颜色上都很鲜艳，变得很跳。
库：九十年代初，有一股水墨革新的潮流，像实验水墨之类，等于是用西方的现代艺术、后现代艺术观念来指导水墨创作；而你却一直坚守传统的笔墨技法，走出了更加个人化的道路。当时为什么能有这样的定力，没有盲目学新？
朱：上面我好像说过，我们的当代油画是从九十年代初，或者再早点，八十年代中后期开始，基本上是用西方的现代艺术和后现代观念来指导油画的创作。实践证明，这事还成功了，而水墨当代化却不能用这些理论，因为这些理论是冲着油画、话剧、歌剧、古典芭蕾说的，人家的理论家、批评家说这些理论的时候，脑子里根本就没有水墨这一概念。人家也没这个义务，更没这个职责，所以这套理论完全拿来，未必合适。就好像人家说的是拌沙拉的方法，而我们非要拿这套拌沙拉的方法去拍黄瓜，能好吃得了吗？所以我们必须坚持自己的笔墨技法，努力用它来说当代的事，才行。从当年到现在，我一直确信，我们从自己几千年的传统文化演进出来的当代艺术观念、当代水墨画的观念和理论始终没出现过，一直是滞后的。既然没出现，又不能等，那只有先画着再说，连摸着石头过河都算不上，基本上是光着屁股过河。
库：你作品中的人物形象很有特点，这个形象最初从何而来，其中是否有自己的投射？
朱：文革时期宏大叙事、高大全红光亮的作品大家看得太多了，快把人都看吐了。改革开放之后，人们开始关注个体、人性、每个具体活生生的人。我也是人，所以有些形象有我自己的影子，画别人，人家也不一定同意，其实也是更多的向传统回归。中国古代的很多经典绘画，画的都是普通的人，街坊邻居、才子佳人的什么的，给伟人、皇帝太监画像的并不多。
库：这个形象的创造完全是一种画面感觉，还是含有某种文化隐喻？
朱：画的时候完全是从画面的感觉出发，事后才看出还有那么多隐喻和文化承载。当时要知道有这么多事，不一定能画得出来。
库：02年的一张《无题4号》给我的印象很深，画面中只有半个背部，但却仍能一眼看出是你的手笔，这种强烈的个人性是怎样获得的？
朱：当时油画也都在画个人，画自己，我就想水墨画怎么就不能。实践证明不但能还不错，水墨画一直没人这么画，我算开了个头。
库：你的画面很“美”，但在这种美的后面又有某种很残酷的东西，这是否在你的预设之中？
朱：你所看到的美是画面整体给你的感觉，正如你说的，画面的背后是在描绘残酷的客观现实，甚至可以说更多的是痛苦。从我近二十年来的创作来看，可以分为两部分。前十年是在叙事、讲故事，紧讲慢讲还怕别人听不懂，不理解，所以整个系列更像是章回绣像小说。比如九三年的《北京故事》、《甜蜜的生活》系列、《新编花营锦阵》系列、九六年的《中国日记》系列、《九十年代》系列、《太上感应》、《梦游手记》系列，等等。从?二、?三年开始强调隐喻即水墨画讲究的意境。画面开始简练一些，有的相当简练，比如二??三年的《大水》系列、《开春图》系列、?五年的《乌托邦》系列、?八年的《两面红旗》系列。
画面内容虽然有了些变化，但我还是在强调人们在现实当中所必须遇到的痛苦、不得意、冷漠及对真、善、美的追问。
关注人在现实不同境遇中的处境和变化是我画画的动机和根本，也是我的激情所在，就像是摇滚乐手，只有在你有愤怒、有情绪要宣泄时，你才能吼得出来。
库：从很多作品的名称上看，你是一个有着传统文人情怀的人，但面对作品，会发现这种情怀好像只是一种借口，或是一层外衣，用之表达的是对现实的一种怀疑与讽刺。你认为自己属于文人吗？
朱伟：现在哪有文人？有文人情怀的倒是不少，我就是其中之一。
传统是一天一天累积形成的，历史上的每一天对当时来说都是全新的，都是当代的，前卫的，否定传统怎么会有后来的当代和前卫。
库：你是怎样将中国传统文人趣味与当代艺术家对现实状况的关注，这两个看似矛盾的方向融合到一起的？
朱：对不起，我从没拿传统文人的趣味来关注当代现实，这是不可能做到的，这犹如诈尸，让死人起来陪你喝酒。我们所说的撑死了是对古人的揣摩，我在另外一篇文章里曾经说过，我们曾经挖出了汉代的编钟，随即就有人编排出了一套《编钟乐舞》，谁都知道，中国古代没有发明出五线谱，连简谱都没弄出来，那这套音乐是怎么传承下来的？靠口口相传，从汉代到今天，如果真的能传下来的话，那味儿得变成什么样，那还是当时的音乐吗？既然不是了，那你让观众瞎听什么，这不是在误人子弟吗？拿揣摩出来的东西当真，是不是不太严肃 ？
库：很多艺术家，特别是水墨艺术家，在回望自身传统的时候，更多看到的是限制、模式与样式，想创新就干脆另起炉灶，搞video、装置去了，怎样既坚守传统，又能搞出新意，这个难度就太大了，你对这个问题怎么看？
朱：这需要坐得住，还得耐得住寂寞，特别是水墨画。即使创作当代水墨画也需要足够的功力和悟性。
用传统的水墨技法、现代的思路，画你看到的理解的现实就行，没什么难的。老想着跳大神恐怕出不来。
库：有艺术家提出：现在只有当代艺术问题，水墨本身已经不是一个问题。你是否同意这种看法？
朱：这是一谬论。什么是当代艺术，当代艺术是要落实到具体的东西上的，比如通过绘画、雕塑、装置、行为艺术、Video、音响等等形式表现出来。你通过它们来表达自己想要表达的当下现实和想法时，所遇到的问题，就是当代艺术的问题。我们吃东西的时候讲究吃点有营养的，所谓营养是通过白菜、萝卜、茄子、西红柿、猪肉、牛肉、羊肉、鱼虾等等组成，你要想摄取营养，就得通过它们，没有专门有一个东西叫营养的。谁能给我炒盘营养出来？当代艺术也是同样的道理。
库：可想而知，对于你的作品。外国批评家不会放过从政治角度大谈特谈的机会，这与你的本意或许有着一定差异，你怎样看待这种误读？
朱：中国的社会现状就是如此。直到如今我们的大街小巷也是标语口号不断，只不过对中国人来说已经习以为常，甚至能做到视而不见，外国人没有受过这教育，所以他敏感。你说我的画面里还有肯德基麦当劳呢，他们怎么不在意？人家打小就是看这个长大的，看到现在还一惊一乍的，说明这人有病。我们的社会至今为止还是一个权力政治的社会，这个特征无处不在，包括艺术家的作品里。我对这种误读还是比较宽容的。当然，艺术家过多的使用政治符号，会让人觉得哗众取宠，创作能力低下。
库：“红旗”这一元素在“乌托邦系列”中就已出现过，后来怎么想到将之单独提炼出来，创作一系列作品的？
朱：单独拿出来更多的是从技法的角度考虑，古人有“曹衣出水，吴带当风”，我们也可以用它来表现当下的东西，看看谁表现得更好。红旗是大家常见的，甚至看得都没感觉了，但是都没能很好地表现出来。
库：最近几年来好像越画越慢了，是有意控制节奏吗？
朱：嗯，是在有意的控制。现在一年画6张左右，没有新的主意，应该少画。我现在大部分时间是在写毛笔字。
库：从作品上看，今年的作品在技法、语言上又有了新的尝试。现在的创作思路与技法上发生了哪些变化？
朱：是。还是在尝试，创作思路和技法上没有太大变化。
库：在绘画、雕塑、写作、导演等等这些身份之上，是怎样的一个共通的追求在引导着你的兴趣？
朱：我是画水墨画的，所以一切围绕着这个来。古代的画家画画之余弹琴、写诗、做文章，甚至作为门客到有钱人家里白话天文地理、古今大事、做人之道。当代的画家没这个机会，但可以做古代画家做不了的事，比如我就画画之外还刻木版画，到工厂去做雕塑，给艺术杂志写专栏，给摇滚乐队拍电影，但这一切必须是水墨画的延伸，必须有水墨的影子。
库：最近几年干了许多画画之外的事情，接下来的工作重心会放在哪儿？
朱：书法和水墨画上。作为水墨画家，这个岁数是想法和功力相对来说成熟的时候，应该是出好作品的阶段。 |
