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October/November 2016, SCOPE, Cover Story
What Are We Busy In? - - A Conversation With Zhu Wei
Thanks to Zhu Wei studio and collector Mr. Wang Huiming
Photography / Xie Teng
If comparing the rhythm of the time to a parabola, the work of outstanding artists is always like a stable axis. Their re-thinking on the mirror of history has been integrated into their lonely day-after-day work, and their thoughts, words and deeds together form the whole face of an artist. Finally, thought and practice will be converted into visual materials, and remain. In the early 1990s, when the first trend of art marketization suddenly came to China, Zhu Wei has become the rider of the tides without realizing it. Almost from the right beginning of his career, Zhu Wei has entered into the relatively standardized international art system, which, even in the present China art environment, is considered a rare opportunity. What follows is that his works has been collected by world famous museums and professional art collectors, while he himself as well becomes the first representative of Chinese contemporary ink painters who was promoted onto the international stage. More than thirty different albums of his paintings and retrospectives of his works have been published. A total of forty-three museums have added his sixty-seven ink paintings and sculptures into their collections.
The most important thing is Zhu Wei has always been practicing in such a road that is based on traditional ink and wash as well as applied to contemporary recreation. This is a tortuous but attractive way. The artist holds the heritage of thousands of years of art, in the meantime his thoughts is living in the present. From 1980s, an open Chinese society started from deep depth the mechanism to communicate with the world. Until today, this is still a question to face with and a path to seek solutions for the whole Chinese society, including the art circle. From the early 1990s, as a practice of visual modernity, there are a lot of mixed collages that can be linked to popular culture semantic appeared in Zhu Wei's works, such as rock lyrics with characteristic of the times, figures of political characters, the style of engraving print after the Ming dynasty, the composition of traditional portrait and so on, all of which constitute Zhu Wei's unique and distinctive artistic style. As he said, "I have painted ink painting for nearly thirty years. All of the materials and techniques I used come from or have a close relationship with the tradition. I have never left the tradition, but what I depict is the people and things that live in the present, or as people often called, the contemporary themes. So I don't think tradition and contemporary are isolated. Using the past to serve the present is my ink painting theory and creation context." Zhu Wei has spontaneously crossed the limitation of traditional paradigm by his nature, with an appearance which is quite different from the accustomed global media and language features today. When faced with the more and more homogenized art trend, whether we should indulge ourselves in a more familiar world, or we should seek for difference from homogenization, is still a difficult question. Under such background, the cultural gene of art is increasingly worthy of our research.
SCOPE: You have always been using a very personal style of modeling language to transfer your thinking of social problems onto paper. Can it be said that painting is your weapon?
Zhu Wei: It's hardly a weapon. The function of Chinese contemporary art is too poor to hurt anything. Chinese contemporary art is a very small circle, so small that it is almost negligible and makes no difference. Why? Contemporary art is a product of the industrial society, which is a reflecting or retribution of industrialization in every aspect of the society. The premise of an industrialized society is the development of the social system, social civilization, industrial environment, and the living environment of human. So when we mention contemporary art, it is an exaggerated saying. In fact, until today we still do not have such soil. We are not an industrialized country, so there will not be the thinking of industrialized countries. For example, now our popularity rate of Apple phone is higher than abroad, and even the Apple's manufacturing is in china. On the surface we look the same as other countries, but how has the communication tool developed to today's level? Why did two centuries ago, American painter Morse create the Morse code telegram? Why did one hundred and fifty years ago, Bell invent the telephone? How does Jobs put the phone and computer and camera in one piece, so that two people close at hand choose to meet on the WeChat? We basically had no idea. But it does not delay our use of mobile phones. The use of mobile phone and the invention of mobile phone are two logics: one requires a good student, who can follow the instructions strictly and even can recite it, so that its service life can be longer, and it would be better if adding a screen protector; the invention of mobile phone requires a destroyer. Or otherwise since the transmission speed of telegraph cable lying at the bottom of Atlantic and Pacific Ocean had been fast enough, what the hell else can we do? The understanding of contemporary art in China is probably at the same level as grasping the basic principles of how to use mobile phones. About what will soon replace the mobile phone, nobody dare to think anything. Li Xiaoshan said, "Chinese contemporary art is like a primary school student doing his homework, who never knows whether what he is doing is correct." I think I'm just like this as well. I'm still not as good as Morse, who knew more than 180 years ago that "when electricity flows though a wire, no matter how long the wire is, the electricity can go through it rapidly. As long as the electricity stops for a moment, there will be sparks." Until today what I know is just: no matter how upset you are, be careful when you touch the switch, especially when your hands are wet. And the high-voltage wire is fucking more terrible, leaving away from it as far as possible. If we do not understand the occurrence and development of a thing, we will blindly worship it, blindly imitate it, and be blindly pessimistic about it, and even do not know what we should pay attention to. The contemporary art is not a mobile phone, and there is no an instruction book in a box, which will surely cause our closely following with trembling. I think the Chinese contemporary art has yet to depict the present situation of China society, and it just copies some contemporary art styles out of context in China, so people do not understand it. People would not go for it, and none of its feet is on the ground, thus it doesn't carry much weight in the society. As Wang Lin questioned in his article: "Other than vested interest, what else was left in Chinese contemporary art?" After thirty years, the bustling tourists in 798 just take it as a scenic spots, which is very similar to watching monkey play. I can even say that the contemporary art of China has not emerged yet. It has got to be a process of the development of society, the enlightenment movement, and the Renaissance, step by step. Now the so-called contemporary art is like a big boy's lonely wet dreams before he's mature enough to marry a woman - instead of getting recognition, he will get a startle.
SCOPE: Does it seem that you have a lot of thinking about painting recently? Sometimes either a large amount of output or a temporary pause could be a sign.
Zhu Wei: I do think more and paint less lately. It's not because there is nothing to paint, but because I don't feel right. It's bit like a donkey pulling mill. I stop when I should stop, and if you are waiting somebody else to stop you, you already have one foot in the grave.
The emergence of Chinese contemporary art must have its own contemporary art theory system first, and then the local painting under the guidance of this theory. Almost everyone knows the Italian Renaissance and the three masters of Renaissance, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Rafael. In fact, the Italian Renaissance masters are not the three, but the three humanist thinkers more than 200 years prior to them, Dante, Petrach, and Boccaccio. It's the three thinkers' theory and "The Divine Comedy" "The Decameron" that guide the creation of later artists. Before the birth of Western contemporary art, there was the influence of famous philosophers such as Hegel, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Feuerbach, Spencer, and Dewey. Frankly speaking, the theory of these Western thinkers was aimed at their own opera, drama, classical ballet, classical painting, poetry and literature. The birth of these theories is really none of China's business, while they even didn't know where China is. Then, if we don't have our own theory system of contemporary art, where did Chinese contemporary art come from? If we don't have contemporary art, what are we busily doing all day long? Is the purpose of making a bunch of things that look like contemporary art to trap art lovers or get some money from collectors? Is it debased for a country's contemporary art to do so?
SCOPE: Let's go back to your paintings. What are the painting tools you use most frequently? Harder brushes? How ripe the Xuan paper do you need? Is this kind of experience a necessary condition to achieve professional success?
Zhu Wei: I think it's a necessary condition to become a craftsman.
I'm always afraid that I will become a craftsman who paints something exactly like what he paints, who can finish a painting within a cigarette's time, and then sign and stamp it during a short period of burping or farting. This kind of talent often can be found especially among ink painters.
Fourteen years ago, I paid a visit to Li Xiaoshan during the summer vacation of his university. We had chatted for half a month at his home in Nanjing, and according to the conversation, a draft manuscript of hundreds of thousands of words was generated. It was going to be published by Guangxi Normal University Press, with the name that Xiaoshan came up with, "The Night Days". But because my northern accent in the tapes was too difficult to be recognized for Li's assistant, the text recorded was the opposite effect to my intention, and it was even harder to change it than to rewrite it, then the book was put on ice. This book is mainly about something outside the location and techniques of ink painting.
Contemporary art in China must be established on the basis of contemporary ink painting. That is to say, first, we have local painting theory, and then, contemporary local art, and on the firm soil of local painting, various types of contemporary art come out. The current level of our industrialization and urban and rural development are just like the United States in 1920s. There is a gap of one hundred years. At that time the urbanization rate in US is 51%, while now we are 54%. As for other aspects of the society, there are still things that we cannot achieve even in today. Our productivity and relations of production are still not match, thus the superstructure based on which such as literature and art are not speaking the same language as other countries in the world. If a lot of artworks in one side look like the other side, it must be imitation or plagiarism. If you copy and plagiarize somebody, at the same time you want to play with him, and you want him to praise you and think highly of you, how could it be possible? It is nice enough not being scolded. A so-called civilization with five thousand years of history cannot produce its own contemporary art, but depends on imitation, it is really an embarrassment.
SCOPE: Caused by media change today, the world of art is facing with new challenges of visual exploration. As an artist, will you value the visual stimulation brought by new media language?
Zhu Wei: This is going back to the beginning. We have said that different stage of development has different soil, just as a thin man accompanies a fat man to lose weight together, one is losing weight, the other is killing himself. The primary issue here is how to let our old ink painting painted by brush and paper to be contemporary. Like the Western artists, we should improve our painting system first. For example, after the Renaissance, mannerism, Baroque, Rococo, neoclassicism, romanticism, critical realism, Barbizon school, Pre-Raphaelites, academicism, impressionism, postimpressionism, symbolism, cubism, abstract, presentationism and so on appeared successively, and then the contemporary art with various styles come out. To learn standing first, then to learn walking and running, that is a way to suffer less. Otherwise if we come back from the half way to make up the missed lesson, the cost will be huge.
SCOPE: Are you going to use the so-called new media as your creation tool? Why?
Zhu Wei: I'm not trying to use new media at present. I think the existing tools have not been fully used and grasped yet, so they are new to me.
SCOPE: Each era has its own aesthetic. They are different in 80s, 90s, and 00s, and each era is full of chaos. Which was eventually recorded by history became the mainstream of the times. So, for the soil itself, it seems that there is no good or bad?
Zhu Wei: It's not so quick to set up a new aesthetic. It's not like shopping mall promotion, which happens in each season. The change of aesthetic needs the stimulation of society change, which is, the soil you mentioned. For an instance, the reaction of artist who was born in 1960s is naturally reflected in their images. We are not as bitter as the previous generation, because when we grew up, the Cultural Revolution had ended. Without the experience of Sending Down Youth to the Countryside, we are not so longing for something as the previous generation were. In the mid of 1980s, artists spontaneously promoted the exploration and development of art. Essentially they were copying everything from the West. I have read articles written by artists during that period, and they are like a book from heaven. Afterwards I came to realize why. At that time a large amount of Western philosophy books came to China suddenly, so it was too rush for people to understand them. Coupled with the awful translation, the artists could only grasp a few isolated words out of context, and what they wrote was based on the poor knowledge. By the beginning of 90s, when the market has dawned in China, and art could be traded for money, artists started to think about how to sell works. My ink painting is the same. A painting for one hundred Yuan back then now could be ten million. Today, the contemporary art and art market is completely pushed by the capital. Artists were kidnapped by the short-term interests, and losing their discourse power. The innovation has basically stopped.
Prior to this, the early art creation was performed by artists who were born in 50s, 60s and 70s. The mature period of their artworks is in 80s and 90s, in which the introspection on Cultural Revolution is used as coordinates, the distance from Cultural Revolution is taken as standards, and the symbols of Cultural Revolution is considered as artistic features. Their success in the market is so obvious that many people haven't thought about their failure. Being so anxious to create and so eager to recapture the lost time, the theme of the Cultural Revolution has been misjudged. The Cultural Revolution is not a result but a phenomenon, and the massive criticism allowing no explanation makes the phenomenon a result. The consequences will show up in the near future.
SCOPE: When the Western cultural came to China aggressively, it's impossible to avoid imitation and approaching in every aspect. What do you think about the imitation in art expressions?
Zhu Wei: Imitation is not a shame, but a bad imitation which leads to internecine is. The inspiration of "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Marquez, the master of magical realism in Latin American, was derived from Juan Rulfo's "Pedro Páramo". Juan Rulfo used two generations to place a family into a lonely situation, while Marquez used seven generations. However, Marquez made the whole story more dynamic, more fascinating. Therefore, he was called "the most brilliant master of imitation in the world". Pop art was originated in the United States. When popular symbols and trademarks which people were familiar with were put into painting, it became the pop art. Pop art contained sarcasm towards consumer culture in capitalist society, resistance against the authority of art and easel art, and denial of modern art, but when pop art spread to the Soviet Union, it evolved into Political Pop and succeeded. The examples include Kosolapov's representative work "Lenin and Coca Cola" and Kabakov's installation "the Red Wagon". It also results in a famous Soviet contemporary art genre, Moscow Conceptualism. China is not an exception. In these two countries, the most popular symbols are symbols of power and politics, and children too young to recognize mustard must know the symbol of regime. So when pop art came to these two countries, it immediately turned to political pop related to ideology, which even Andy Warhol himself might not foresee. But it's no doubt that this is a complete imitation.
SCOPE: You have painted many portraits which are a bit dazed and a little bland. Is this your observation of the faces of this era?
Zhu Wei: I have created 19 painting series, while each series varies from its beginning to its end. I don't like to be a symbol that the market can take advantage of readily. Many people told me not to change, so that I can be recognized easily, however, I'm glad that I keep walking forward step by step. And it's partly because of the various types of exhibition. I want to change, but before I made a change, there was an exhibition coming, so I had to change little by little. The real change happens in my concept painting series "The Ink and Wash Research Lectures series" from 2012.
From the "Comrade Captain" in 1993, I began to pay more attention to a certain person, while before that, I seemed seldom to paint a person's inner world. Prior to this, I often painted Mao Zedong and other public figures to emphasize the sense of the times, because if I painted my relatives or some guy's relatives, nobody knew them. On one hand, these paintings could be in concert with the society; on the other hand, I was trying to carve a path of contemporary meticulous ink painting at that time. I had thought ink painting was weak, and if I did not depict a narrative context or story, it could not establish itself. But when I have a firm grasp of figure painting, I can go to the inner world. It was not until this painting that I fully know how to paint a contemporary figure, and then I started to paint the big heads.
Being bland is because there were too many cheeky faces in art at that time. It's a strategy. So far, there is no other artist in the ink painting history who dares to paint a figure painting as big as three to five meters. I have painted about a dozen of such paintings those years.
SCOPE: let's talk about the art market, even though artists are not supposed to be drawn into this topic.
Zhu Wei: What artists create is spiritual wealth. No one will judge the value of an artist by how much he earns even in the most blamed society. Artists gain their respect because their purpose is not money, or making money while drawing a few paintings. Like intellectuals, artists are the social consciences, who create spiritual products to balance the general tendency of a society. They would like to make sacrifice in some way, or they don't even care at all.
The function of galleries is to find, popularize and market art works and even artists when the occasions call for it. In the art industry, galleries are the most Avant-garde, at the forefront and the most important part. Galleries choose art at their own peril. Galleries have to rely on their know-how and knowledge to judge and discover quality artworks and artists.
Art museums and museums rely on galleries to choose well-established artists rather than making acquaintance with them on their own feet or their progress will be severely curtailed. When you visit an artist who keeps a dog, you may get bitten; or when you visit a hospitable artist, you may be invited to dinner and the day will fly away.
At the auction house, in theory, everything can be auctioned off, including real estate, works of art, gloves, socks, wine. Everything is accepted and sold on commission. Both in history and at the moment, overseas or domestically, no auction houses purely rely on art for a living, therefore it maybe inferred that auction houses are not charged with the responsibility of discovering and judging artists. Certainly, auction houses in China are now competing with frontline galleries to do what the latter innately must do, but that is only temporary. Sooner or later, the auction houses will learn their lesson and walk along a more professional line.
To assess a gallery, it is essential to see how many good artists the gallery has cultivated and what kind of artistic trends it has ushered in. At the same time, it is necessary to see whether a good interactive relationship is built (by the gallery) between the artists and collectors and that the gallery has a few good stable collector clientele and market.
One needs only see what has been auctioned off and the sales price to evaluate an auction house; nobody expect an auction house to make art history by the sheer act of auction sales.
To judge an art museums or a museum, it is necessary to see how many good works of art it has done for public collection, how much art facts and figures it has made known to the public, and whether it accurately documents the shift of art in a given age.
SCOPE: Some time ago there was news showing that, according to statistics, the per capita income of several large cities in China has been above the intermediate level, which should have a good effect on the art industry.
Zhu Wei: A normal and balanced market will take millions of ordinary collectors as the core. The Western art market has achieved this, which is why their culture and art are full of life, and having strong driving force to continue the explorations. None of the outstanding art masters that we can remember is raised by the state or speculations. Even though they might be pushed by the capital, it’s still the millions of ordinary collectors that will pay the bill at last. This is to say, there must be hundreds and even thousands of art appreciators and supporters behind an outstanding artist, who will provide the artist time to focus on his creation, and reward his art lovers and supporters accordingly. The emergence of many art collectors in a country is linked with the economic strength of the country. I've never heard that people who are starving must collect a piece of art on their way of fleeing from famine. For thousands of years, China had been an economic society of agriculture and people led a quite good life. Almost every ordinary family had the tradition of collecting art. James Cahill, a famous American scholar of ancient Chinese paintings, told a story in his book "The Painter’s Practice": a collector in a village wanted to obtain a work from an artist, therefore everyday windy or rainy, he went to the hill or climbed on a tree near the village, to observe whether there was smoke coming out of the artist's chimney. If there was no smoke, the artist must be in shortage of grain. Then the collector would visit him with food as well as nice paper and ink in order to get his works. In the Song Dynasty, China’s GDP accounted for 80% of the world’s total with per capita income of US$ 2,280, in the Yuan Dynasty, 35%; in the Ming Dynasty, 45%, and in the Qing Dynasty, 40% to 45%. In the early Qing Dynasty, China’s GDP still led the world.
At the beginning of the last century, because of the arrival of the Western oil painting, we were eager to conceptualize the ink painting. In the late Ming and early Qing dynasty, some missionaries had already brought the oil painting into China, but it did not draw much attention. Although the Italian painter Giuseppe Castiglione, Joseph Panzi, and French painter Jean Denis Attiret had worked for many years in the court of the Qing dynasty, not only did they have no influence on other Chinese artists, but they often were so despised to such a degree that after decades, they had been deeply affected by Chinese painting and turned what they did into meticulous Chinese oil painting. During the May 4th Movement in the late Qing dynasty and early republic of China, a large number of oil painting artists who returned from study abroad started running schools, setting up oil painting associations, establishing oil painting bases, advocating Western aesthetics, promoting solid grounding in sketch and precise techniques of modeling, having life classes, and bringing the debate between Xu Beihong and Xu Zhimo on the evaluation of modern Western painters, and so on. It is impossible for foreign missionaries such as Matteo Ricci and Western painters such as Giuseppe Castiglione and Jean Denis Attiret to do so, and they would feel shy to do so. The culture war is different from the military war for there is no real outside force, and therefore, the victory depends entirely on domestic acceptance and self-disintegration. In order to build up an equivalent to the foreign painting, the name of Chinese painting was generated, which also became a beginning of the later names like ink painting, ink and wash, and so on.
In October 2016, The National Art Museum of China held a homecoming report exhibition after the largest international tour of Chinese oil painting. In the conference of the exhibition, Jin Shangyi said, "If we really want to do some cultural exchange with other countries, our oil painting won't work, because the world doesn't think much of it. It has to be the Chinese painting." Since the Oil painting has not been introduced into China until the recent 100 years, while in its history, no technique, style or trend was initiated or developed in China, there is still a long and hard journey to go before it takes roots. That’s why the Chinese art history is basically the history of ink painting, and it’s important for us to look at the contemporary ink painting from a historical angle. It'll be better if there is no fault. Many Asian countries lost their traditional local painting as a result of being colonized. What’s worse, they can’t even find teachers to teach local painting in universities. It’s fortunate that we still have the major or department of Chinese painting in fine arts academies, and they are given priority at least on surface. To match the contemporary oil painting, we hastily came up with the concept of contemporary ink painting. We are so comfortable with it that even no one cares to question about it. It proves that after May Fourth Movement, Cultural Revolution and reform and opening up in the last 100 years, we have become so broad-minded, so eager to criticize ourselves, and so powerful in self-denial and self-collapse. This is the living environment of our thousands-of-years-old traditional painting.
The contemporary ink painting is not a branch of traditional ink painting; it is an inheritance and continuation of traditional ink painting, but not a development. Everything of the contemporary ink painting can be found in traditional ones; however, some traditional elements are lost. Our inheritance varies from people to people. That is to say, everyone do it on their own capability. Some combine the traditional spirits and techniques with the present social transformation and characteristics of the times, and if the combination works well, contemporary ink painting can be created. Some just inherit the traditional techniques, but cannot link them with social reality. They play ink games and paint flowers and grasses which our ancestors had been painting for thousands of years, so these people can be regarded as ancient people who live in today. They are the most common. And there is another type, who is the most confusing. Neither can they combine their works with the transforming society, nor can they master traditional ink techniques. There seems to be some modern features in their painting, but you cannot tell when it was painted because there is no characteristics of the times. When it comes to the techniques, they hide the head but show the tail with a lot of vague gestures, but no real skill can be verified. It's impossible for this sort of painting become an ink description of the contemporary society, or be in the realm of "discussion on painting techniques", because either of above needs art exploration. Thus, they often depend on commercial speculation to cover the lack of academic research.
The most important issue that the contemporary ink painting confronts is whether it can keep up with the development of the society in both form and content, and whether it can reflect the reality. If this issue cannot be solved, it cannot be called contemporary ink. The state I expect is that the Chinese contemporary ink painting can be like the Western contemporary oil painting: there are art trends such as Political Pop represented by Andy Warhol , soft abstract represented by Richter, vivid depiction of real life represented David Hockney and so on. The ink painting would be so popular that years later, the Western artists will have a burning ambition to learn Chinese painting skills as a swarm of bees. They will study hard on "three layers of alum and nine procedures of dyeing", as well as various types of shading skills including big-axe shading and small-axe shading. They will compete to each other who is doing the best, and understanding the spirit of ink the most deeply. And then, there will be some German Gu Kaizhi, Li Keran, Fu Baoshi, some British Fan Kuan, Zhang Zeduan, Tang Bohu, some American Gu Hongzhong, Shi Tao, Bada Shanren and so on. Just as Westerners never discuss the existential questions of oil painting, we will no longer talk about whether ink painting has come to its dead end by then.
二零一六年十/十一月《艺术客》封面文章
我们在忙活什么？——和朱伟的谈话
鸣谢/朱伟工作室及收藏家王惠明先生
摄影/谢腾
如果把时代的律动比作一条抛物线，优秀艺术家的工作往往像是一条稳定的坐标轴，对历史镜像的再思考，融入了日复一日的孤独工作中，思、言、行一起组成了一个艺术家的完整面貌，思想和实践被转换成物质化的视觉遗迹存留下来。90 年代初，当最初的艺术市场化潮流猛然扑来时，朱伟不自知地成为了“弄潮儿”，几乎是从他的职业生涯一开始，朱伟就进入了相对规范的国际艺术系统的机制之中，这即便是在当下中国的艺术环境中，都被视为难得的际遇。应接而来的是作品不断被世界著名的博物馆和专业修养完备的收藏家收藏，成为最早被推展到国际舞台的中国当代水墨艺术家代表人物。先后出版过三十部不同文字的绘画专集、回顾专集和文集，共计有四十三家美术馆收藏了他的六十七件水墨及雕塑作品。
最重要的是，朱伟一直在实践的是一条立足于传统水墨根基，诉求当代化再创造的道路，这条道路很曲折也很有引力作用，即便操着传承千百年的技艺，艺术家的思想却活在当下，自80年代开始，开放的中国社会从深层上启动了对话世界的机制，直至今日，这仍是整个社会更勿庸艺术界所要面对和寻求方案的问题。朱伟的作品里充满大量链接大众文化语义的混杂拼贴，这种代表视觉现代性的实践于90年代初期在朱伟的作品中显露，譬如代表时代性的摇滚歌词、政治人物形象、明末以降的雕版刻印风、传统绘画中的肖像构图方式等等，共同构成了朱伟独特而鲜明的个人艺术风格。如他自己所言“我画水墨快三十年，使用的材料、技法全部从传统来，和传统有密切的联系。我一直没有脱离开传统，但我描绘的是当下发生的人和事，也就是人们常说的当代题材。所以我一直没觉得传统和当代是隔离的。古为今用是我画水墨画的理念和创作脉络。”朱伟以天性的率性逾越过范式的框架，以完全不同于当今习以为常的全球化媒介和语言的面貌，面向愈加同质化的艺术时风，世界在从彼此间的陌生走向熟悉，还是在同质化中寻求差异，仍是难以下定论的问题，艺术的文化基因在这样的背景下，愈发值得深究。
SCOPE：你一直用极具个人风格的造型语言，把你对社会化问题的思考转移到纸上来，可以说绘画是你的武器吗？
朱伟：谈不上武器，中国的当代艺术功能很低下，伤不了人。中国当代艺术是一个很小的圈子，小到几乎忽略不计，几乎没有什么影响，为什么没影响？当代艺术是工业化社会的产物，是工业化给社会方方面面造成影响的条件反射或者说报应，工业化社会的前提是社会制度，社会文明，产业环境，人类居住环境进步发展到那了。所以我们提当代艺术那是努着说的，其实至今没这个土壤，我们还不是工业化国家，所以也不会有工业化国家的思维。比如大家现在人手一个的苹果手机，普及率比国外还高，甚至苹果的代工厂就在中国。表面上看貌似一样，但是人类的通讯工具是如何非要发展到今天这个地步的？两个世纪前美国画家摩尔斯为何要捣鼓出摩尔斯密码电报？一百五十年前贝尔为何非要发明出电话？到今天乔布斯是如何把电话和电脑和相机整在一块，让两个人近在咫尺却非要在微信上相见的？我们基本不知道。但是不耽误我们使用手机。使用手机和发明手机那是两个思路，一个需要好学生，严格按说明书，最好会背，这样手机的寿命会长点，如果再贴个膜会更好；发明手机则需要破坏者，不然铺设在大西洋底，太平洋底的光线电缆传递速度已经够他妈快的了还折腾啥？中国的艺术家对当代艺术的理解大概也就是初步掌握使用手机这么个水平，至于手机很快会被什么取代根本没敢往那想。李小山说过“中国的当代艺术如同小学生做作业，对不对自己永远不知道”，我想我就是如此。我至今都不如摩尔斯，他他妈一百八十多年前就知道“不管电线有多长，电流都可以神速通过，电流只要停止片刻，就会现出火花”。我至今只知道再想不开也别轻易摸电门，特别是手上沾着水的时候，至于高压电线那他妈更可怕，离的越远越好。对一件事情的发生发展不了解，就会盲目崇拜盲目模仿盲目悲观，甚至都不知道该注意些什么。当代艺术不像手机，没有使用说明书，那么造成的局面必定会战战兢兢亦步亦趋。我觉得，中国的当代艺术至今都没能很好的描绘出中国社会现状，只是一些当代艺术样式照搬模仿断章取义嫁接到中国，所以人民群众不理解，观众看不懂。大家几乎都不买账，造成当代艺术不接地气，在社会上没什么影响力。正如王林的一篇文章：“除了即得利益，当代艺术还有什么？”。三十年过去了，798熙熙攘攘的游客把那当成景点，类似于看猴。我甚至可以断言，属于中国的当代艺术至今还未出现，它的出现必定是要经过社会的进步，思想启蒙运动和文艺复兴，一步步完成的。现如今的这些个所谓当代艺术如同一个半大小子在成年娶媳妇之前的一次孤独的梦遗，不但得不到肯定还把自己吓了一跳。
SCOPE：近来你对绘画似乎也有很多思考？有时候大量的产出或暂时的停顿可能都是一种表现。
朱伟：最近想的比画得多，倒不是没的画，而是觉得不对劲。有点像驴拉磨，该停就停，等别人叫停那就该离死不远了。
中国当代艺术的出现必定先有中国自己的当代艺术理论体系，和在此理论指导下的本土绘画。几乎每个人都知道意大利文艺复兴，而且都知道文艺复兴三杰达芬奇、米开朗琪罗、拉斐尔。其实意大利文艺复兴三杰并非指的是这三位，而是在此前两百多年的三位人文主义思想家但丁、皮特拉克、薄伽丘。是这三位思想家的理论和《神曲》，《十日谈》指引着后来艺术家们的创作。西方当代艺术诞生之前有黑格尔、尼采、叔本华、费尔巴哈、斯宾塞、杜威等著名哲家思想家的影响。这些西方思想家们的理论说句不客气的话，针对的是人家自己的歌剧、话剧、古典芭蕾、古典绘画、诗歌文学，这些理论的诞生真没中国人什么事，他们都未必知道中国在哪儿。那么，我们没有产生自己当代艺术的思想和理论体系，哪儿来的中国当代艺术？如果没有，我们现在一天到晚撅着屁股瞎忙活啥？弄了一堆貌似当代艺术的东西，难道就是为骗骗艺术爱好者或者从收藏家那弄点钱花？一个国家的当代艺术玩成这样是不是低了点？！
SCOPE：说回你的画，你最常用的绘画材料都是哪些？偏硬的毛笔，几成的熟宣？这种日积月累的经验是成就绘画的必要条件吗？
朱伟：我觉得这是成就匠人的必要条件。
我一直担心最后混成一画啥像啥，一棵烟的功夫就能画完一张画，打嗝放屁的时间盖章落款完活儿的匠人，水墨画特别容易出这方面的人才。
十四年前我趁李小山学校放暑假的功夫，去南京他家聊了半个月，整理了几十万字，准备请广西师大给出本书，名字小山都想好了叫《九日谈》。后来因为他的助理在录音机中听不懂我说的北方话，整理出来的文字南辕北辙，改起来比重说一遍还费劲，最后给搁起来了。这本书主要谈的是谈的是水墨画的位置和技术之外的事。
中国的当代艺术一定建立在当代水墨的基础之上，也就是说先产生本土的绘画理论，然后出现当代的本土绘画，然后在本土绘画结实的土壤之上在产生出想过的当代艺术各个品种。我们凡事儿都将具有中国特色，这他妈就是。我们现在的工业化水平，城乡发展水平，正好是1920年代的美国，相差一百年。当年美国的乡村城市化规模是百分之五十一，我们现在是达到百分之五十四。至于社会的方方面面有的至今我们还做不到。生产力和生产关系还很难匹配，所以建立在此之上的文学艺术这些个上层建筑和世界其他国家唠得还不是一个嗑，如果有一方大面积的作品像另外一方那一定是在剽窃模仿。模仿和剽窃还要和人家一起玩，还想让对方说好，看得起你，怎么可能，不骂你就算不错了。一个号称五千年的文明古国产生不了自己的当代艺术，靠模仿别人，说出来真不好意思。
SCOPE：今天，艺术世界面临着媒介更迭所带来的视觉探新的挑战，身为艺术家，你会看重媒介语言给你带来的视觉激发吗？
朱伟：这话又回到开头，我们前面说过，发展阶段不一样，土壤也不一样。如同一个瘦子陪胖子减肥，一个是在减肥另外一个是在玩命。我们现在首要的问题是如何让我们用毛笔宣纸画了几千年的水墨画当代，像西方艺术家一样先完善自己的绘画系统，比如，在文艺复兴之后，创立出风格主义，巴洛克艺术，洛可可，新古典主义，浪漫主义，批判现实主义，巴比松画派，前拉斐尔画派，学院派，印象派，后期印象派，象征主义，立体派，抽象，表象主义等等，才出现了今天我们看到的风格多样的当代艺术。先学会站稳了，之后再学会走路学会跑，这样才不耽误事儿，之后返回来补课，那成本可就大了。
SCOPE：你会尝试使用所谓的新兴媒介做你的创作工具吗？为什么？
朱伟：目前我不准备尝试新的媒介，我觉得手中现有的工具还没充分使用和掌握，他对我来说还是新的。
SCOPE：一个时代产生一个时代的审美，80年代、90年代，2000年后第一个十年，各有不同，每个时代都是乱象丛生，最终被历史记载的，成为了时代主流，土壤似乎没有什么好坏之分？
朱伟：审美没有那么快就建立起来，更不像商场促销，按节假时令走。它需要社会的改变，来刺激它，也就是你说的土壤。举个例子，60年代出生的艺术家对事物的反应自然的反应在画面中，我们没有上一代一脑门子的痛苦。因为我们成长的过程中文革已经结束，也没有经历过上山下乡，所以对于某些东西的追求没有上一代的那么迫切，也没有那么痛苦。八十年代中期，艺术家自发地来推动艺术的探索和发展，比如西方有什么，基本就是模仿什么，我见过那个时期艺术家写的文章，简直和天书一样，后来才悟出来，原来是西方大量哲学书籍进来，来不及消化，再加上当时的翻译水平低下，造成艺术家片言只语的理解，断章取义外带夹生。到了90年代初，市场开始出现了，艺术品可以换成钱了，大家就琢磨怎么好卖，我的水墨画也是这样。当时一百元卖一张画，现在可能值一千万。如今，完全是资本推动当代艺术和艺术市场，艺术家被资本的短期利益回报所绑架，失去话语权，创新基本停止。
在此之前早期的艺术创作，是以五六七为代表的创作队伍，他们作品的成熟期是在80和90年代，是以对文革的反思做为坐标，以距离文革的远近为区分标准，以挪用文革符号多少为艺术特征。他们在市场上的成功大家都看在眼里，他们的失败很多人还没想过，由于急于创作，把失去的时间夺回来，对文革题材进行了误判，文革不是结果而是现象，对一个现象不由分说劈头盖脸的一顿批判和嘲讽使现像变成了结果，这一后果在不远的将来会得到报应。
SCOPE：当西方的文化强势袭来，免不了模仿和靠近，从方方面面的展开，你怎么看待艺术表现中的模仿问题？
朱伟：模仿不丢人，丢人的是没模仿好造成两败俱伤。拉丁美洲魔幻现实主义大师马尔克斯的《百年孤独》灵感就是来源于胡安•鲁尔福的《佩德罗•巴拉莫》。鲁尔福用了两代人将一个家族置于孤独绝境，马尔克斯却足足用了七代人，然而他将整个故事变得更富有活力，更引人入胜，因此，曾经有人把马尔克斯称为“世界上最漂亮的模仿大师”。波普艺术发源于美国，将耳熟能详的流行符号、商标放入艺术绘画中，成为了后来的波普艺术。波普艺术本来含有讽刺资本主义社会消费文化、反抗权威艺术和架上艺术、有否定现代主义艺术的成分，可当波普艺术当年到了苏联时，却演变成了具有意识形态意味的政治波普并获得了成功，比如科索拉波夫的代表作《列宁与可口可乐》，卡巴科夫的装置作品《红色火车厢》等，还因此出现了一个著名的苏联当代艺术流派，莫斯科观念主义。中国也不例外，因为在这两个国家最流行的是权力和政治的符号，小孩儿从小连榨菜可能都不认识的时候但一定认识政权的标志，所以当波普艺术到了这两个国家，立即演变成与意识形态有关的政治波普，这恐怕连安迪·沃霍尔自己也没预见到，但毫无疑问这是一次彻头彻尾的模仿。
SCOPE：在你的作品中表现过许多人物肖像，有点昏昏然又有点冷眼旁观。这是你对时代面孔的一种观看？
朱伟：我的画到现在一共有19个系列，而且每个系列前后变化都很大，不太喜欢被商业和市场抓到那种符号的认知。很多人都跟我聊说，不要变的让别人不认识我了，但我觉得我就是一步步的往前这么画，高兴。但也有一部分原因是由于各类展览催的，只能一点点变化，我想变，但是还没有来得及变化展览又来了，有时候有点儿应付展览。到后来真正有变化是2012年进入观念绘画的《水墨研究系列》。
从93年的《上尉同志》开始我开始更关注某一个人，在这之前画的似乎都没有去画一个人的内心世界。在此之前，我经常画毛泽东，为的是把时代感强调出来了，画别人或者我家亲戚，大家都不认识，所以画的净是些公众人物。这些画一方面为了跟社会呼应，一方面也是开创出一条当代工笔画的路子，画一个人的内心，当然也是我对人物的把握相对成熟了。在此之前或许是能力达不到，总觉得水墨画很弱，如果不画成叙事情境或小说，画总站不住，所以总是靠人、山水去描述一件事情、一个场景。到这张画的时候我在造型上完全把握到了当代人物应该如何去画，跟时代挂钩了，就开始画大头。
冷眼旁观是因为当时画嘻皮笑脸的太多了，策略。到今天为止，水墨画古今中外纯粹的人物头像画到三五米的除我之外没有第二个，这样的画我当年画了十几张。
SCOPE：谈谈艺术市场吧，虽然艺术家总是不应该被拉进这个话题中。
朱伟：艺术家创造的是精神财富，不会有人以这个艺术家钱挣的多少来怀疑他艺术水平的高低。再混蛋的社会，也不会对艺术家有这个要求。艺术家之所以受人尊重，是因为他不是以挣钱为目的、或挣钱的同时再画几张画。艺术家和知识分子一样，是这个社会的良知，是用精神产品来平衡这个社会的普遍倾向，是在某些方面要做出牺牲的，或者说是根本就不能在意的。
画廊的功能是发现、普及和经营艺术作品，有的连艺术家也能一起经营。在艺术产业链中，画廊是最前卫的，是一线的，是最重要的环节。画廊起着大浪淘沙的作用，而且还要冒一定风险。画廊的经营者要用自己所知道的知识，判断和发现优秀的艺术作品和艺术家。
美术馆和博物馆是通过画廊来选择成熟的艺术家，而不是挨家挨户地敲门，到艺术家家中去家访，那一天才能看几个。碰着艺术家有养狗的，可能会被咬一口，或者碰着艺术家实诚热情的，非留下吃饭，一天不就过去了。
拍卖行应该是什么都拍，上到房屋地产、艺术作品，下到手套、袜子、葡萄酒，只要有人接，就提成。古今中外，没一家拍卖行只靠拍卖艺术作品营利，所以说它没有发现和判断艺术家好坏的职责和义务。当然中国的拍卖行现在抢着干一线画廊的活儿，这毕竟是暂时的，相信它们早晚会悟出来，会做得专业一些。
判断一个画廊的好坏是看它培养出了多少优秀的艺术家，引领了什么样的艺术潮流，同时又能在艺术家和收藏家之间建立良好的互动关系，有一定的优秀稳定的收藏家和市场。
判断一个拍卖行的好坏，只要看它拍出了多少东西，成交额是多少，没人指望拍卖行为艺术家书写历史。
判断一个美术馆、博物馆的好坏是要看它为公众收藏展示了多少优秀的艺术品，普及和传达给公众多少艺术常识，是否准确地记录了一个时代的艺术流变。
SCOPE：前段时间新闻说，各项数据显示，中国多个大城市的人均收入已经迈入了中等偏高收入的阵营，这对艺术行业该有好的作用。
朱伟：一个和谐正常不扭曲的市场是以千百万普通收藏家为核心的市场，这些在西方早已做到，所以他们的文化艺术具有很强的生命力和不断探索的动力，我们能叫得出名来的优秀艺术家大师都不是靠国家或炒家养活而生存的。即使是资本推动最后也是要千百万普通藏家买单，一个优秀的艺术家身后一定会有成百上千甚至上万的欣赏者供养者，这样艺术家才能腾出空儿来专心投入创作，回报给热爱艺术的衣食父母们。一个国家艺术品收藏家的大量出现一定和这个国家老百姓的经济实力有关，没听说过谁在逃荒路上饿的跟孙子似的还非要收一件作品。中国几千年来虽然是农业文明社会但日子一直过得不错，一般家庭都有收藏的习惯，而且都到了一定份儿上。著名学者高居翰在他的《画家生涯》一书里讲了这么个故事：一个村里的藏家为了收藏到一有气节的画家作品，无论刮风下雨，每天都到村口对面山坡上或爬到树上观看画家房子上的烟囱是否冒烟，如果不冒烟了说明画家这两天一定断粮了，他便带着粮食和好纸好墨前去，以求得到画家的作品。宋代的时候GDP占全世界的百分之八十，人均收入2280美元。元代百分之三十五，明代百分之四十五，清代百分之四十至百分之四十五，清初GDP还是世界第一。
上世纪初我们急于给画了几千年的水墨画定位起名，是因为西方油画的进入。虽然明末清初已有传教士将油画带入中国，但并未引起国人的关注，意大利人郎世宁、潘廷章、法国人王致诚虽然在清朝的体制内画了多年，不但没影响了其他中国画家，还经常被人看不起，十几年下来反而受到中国绘画的影响，把手里的活儿变成了工笔油画。直到清末民初五四运动，大批留洋回来学油画的艺术家办班办学，组织油画研究会，建立油画基地，倡导西方美学，提倡扎实的素描基础严谨的造型技巧，人体写生，以及徐悲鸿和徐志摩关于西方现代画家评价的争论等等，这些是像利玛窦这样的外国传教士，郎世宁王致诚这样的西方画家在中国更本不可能也不好意思做到的。文化战争和军事战争不同，没里应外合这一说法，完全得靠内部自我接受最后自我瓦解取得胜利。为了和洋画相对应国画这词儿出现了，也为以后改叫彩墨画中国画水墨画什么的起了个头。
2016年10月，中国美术馆举办了迄今为止最大规模的中国油画艺术国际巡回归国汇报展，靳尚谊在展览的研讨会上说“真的要和西方交流文化，拿我们的油画不行，人家更本看不上，只能是国画。”油画进入中国是最近一百年来的事，在油画的历史上没有一种技法、流派、创作倾向是在中国诞生和发展起来的，也就是说油画在中国基本还是在普及传播。那么水墨的发展史可以说就是中国的绘画史，当代水墨的发展从历史的角度来看就显得至为重要了。最好不要出现断层，很多亚洲国家由于当年被殖民，或者后来被文化殖民，多少年下来，现在本土绘画几乎绝迹，连大学里都找不到教本土绘画的老师，我们现在美术院校里还有国画系或国画专业，并且在面儿上看还一直被放在所有专业的首位，就是一件很值得庆幸的事。水墨画为了和当代油画相对应又急忙改叫当代水墨。没任何人发出一声小小的疑问，可见这一百年来经过了五四运动，文化大革命运动，改革开放运动等等，几次运动下来我们变得多么豁得出去，批评和自我批评多么深入人心，自我否定自我瓦解的能力有多强。这也就是我们老祖宗几千年传承下来的绘画现今的生存环境和状态。
当代水墨不是从传统水墨中分离出来的，它是对传统水墨的继承和延续，连发展都说不上。当代水墨有的传统里都有，传统有的现在反而没了。我们对传统的继承因人而异，也就是说凭本事凭能力。有的继承了传统的精神、创作方法、结合当下的社会变革、时代特征，还有的在笔墨技法上多多少少有了一些探索，结合得好就成了当代水墨画。再一种只继承了传统的笔墨技法，无法和当下现实社会结合，或者说结合不了，画些古人一直在画的花花草草，玩玩笔墨什么的，可以说是活在今天的古人，这种最常见。还有一种容易让人迷惑，就是既无法和当下社会变革时代演变结合，传统的笔墨技法功力又不够，画面似乎有现代感却说不清楚是什么年代，没有时代特征，技法又藏头缩尾，闪转腾挪，无法看出实际功力。这种画既无法进入水墨画对当代社会的描述，也不可能进入“笔墨探讨的争论”，无任何艺术探索可言，这种画往往靠的是市场炒作来遮盖学术上的苍白。
当代水墨能否从形式内容上跟进社会的发展，能否反映现实，是当代水墨所面临的最重要的问题。这个问题解决不了，就不可以称之为当代水墨。我希望看到的状态是中国的当代水墨画像西方的当代油画一样，出现像安迪.沃霍尔那样的政治波普，像里希特那样的软抽象，像大卫.霍克尼那样对现实生活鲜活的描写，以至于多少年之后，西方的艺术家们一窝蜂地拼命学习中国绘画三矾九染，各种皴法，大斧劈小斧劈，比谁学得像，吃得透，因此而出现一些德国的“顾恺之”“李可染”“傅抱石”，英国的“范宽”“张择端”“唐伯虎”，美国的“顾闳中”“石涛”“八大”等等。到了那个时候，我们就会像西方人从不讨论油画的存亡问题一样，再也不讨论水墨画是否“穷途末路”了。 |
