|
99 Art Website, ww.99ys.com, May 17, 2011
Zhu Wei: Techniques and Materials can be Inherited, but not Spirit
99 Art Website: Song Rui, Guest: Zhu Wei (artist)
Editor’s note: With the boom of contemporary art market and the constant sky-high price of contemporary art works, contemporary Chinese art has attracted a lot of attention in recent years, but meanwhile it also faces a lot of problems. Absurdity of content and diversity of form make people sense a great distance between contemporary art and real life. Especially the contemporary Chinese art under the western discourse power, how should it pursue contemporaneity while keeping traditional? How does the ink painting, which is always in a week position, face the problem? For this purpose, we interview the contemporary ink painter, Zhu Wei, and hope that this dialogue can be a useful exploration in the development of contemporary Chinese art.
Ink and wash has always been there and now the emphasis on tradition is in fact contempt for it
99 Art Website: How are you Zhu Wei? I’m really exciting that you accept our interview. First I want to ask about topics of the traditional and the contemporary which the art circle is discussing at present. It is generally believed that our inherent traditional culture or ethos will present a new look or a new turn in the field of contemporary art. Could you elaborate on your understanding of the traditional and the contemporary?
Zhu Wei: Firstly thanks for your interview.
The relationship between the traditional and the contemporary is the relationship between yesterday and today. It can be said that if there is no past, then there is no present and no future. This is an objective law. Any segment which is neglected has to be made up for sooner or later, and even doubly. Our country is a good example, in those years, we were about to enter communism society but in the end we had to return to the primary stage of socialism to concentrate on construction and development and made up the lesson of market economy fiercely and cruelly, more exaggerated than in the same period of countries in Europe and American.
Tangible things can be caught up by working overtime, but spirit and culture require more time to restore and improve. Through thirty years’ effort, GDP can be ranked second in the world, but even through several thirty years’ effort, we are unable to develop Chinese culture into the highest level in the world. “It takes ten years to grow trees but a hundred years to rear people” is exactly this meaning.
99 Art Website: Could you also explain whether there are some concepts you draw from tradition in the creation thoughts of this work? What is its internal context roughly like?
Zhu Wei: “Learning outwardly from nature, gaining inwardly in the heart”. The so-called nature is the objective world, the natural world and also the people and things presented before you. First you learn, imitate and record, then distill and conceive and in the end you make it out.
I have been drawing ink paintings for nearly three decades and all the materials and techniques come from tradition and are closely linked with tradition. I have not deviated from tradition, but what I draw is the current people and things which are now in progress. Those are also what people often call, the contemporary themes. So, I have never felt that the traditional is isolated from the contemporary. Applying the past to the present is my concept and creation context of ink painting.
99 Art Website: After the founding of new China, we experienced historical moments of the Cultural Revolution, Reform and Opening-up and the tensions in the late 80s. From the perspective of these historical events, the official posture and the trend in the West determine people’s attitude on art, tradition, culture and art to a large extent. In what state do you think the present traditional culture and art survive?
Zhu Wei: I think, not just after the foundation of new China. Since entering modern history, most Western countries had gone through social changes, their economies had developed rapidly and the growth had grown at double-digit rates. Their GDP continued to rise and their strength grew rapidly, but China was still continuing the feudal society which had already existed for thousands of years and its productivity was extremely low. In the end, Western countries came to demand and attack us, but we were unable to make any counterattack. In 1919, the May Fourth Movement broke out, the slogan of “Science and Democracy” was proposed and a large number of advanced Western science, technology and culture flooded in. Because of many years’ poverty and backwardness, the Chinese became extremely unconfident about everything of their own. People urgently need a new revolution to overthrow and negate everything of the past including culture, and in that period, ink painting suffered great destruction and denial for the first time in thousands of years. After the founding of China, 1950s witnessed the ink revolution, that is “revolutionize the life of ink painting” called by later generation, distorting ink painting beyond recognition. During the Cultural Revolution, ink painting was deemed reactionary and corrupt and was destroyed once again. The year of 1978 saw reform and opening-up, and in 1985, New Art Movement marginalized ink painting. In early 1980s, some critics made the claim of “ink painting is in dead end” which triggered a nationwide discussion on the survival and death of ink painting. In short, due to one hundred years of lack of confidence, ink painting has suffered greatly, but the result of suffer is that ink painting has been gradually marginalized. As part of traditional Chinese culture, ink painting has suffered to such an extent that has nothing to do with foreigners but all our own.
99 Art Website: Relatively closer to us, in speaking of this problem of ink painting, what is your view of master Wu Guanzhong’s statement “ink equals zero”?
Zhu Wei: Now it’s not the question of ink equals zero or not, but that many exhibitions in the name of contemporary display little ink paintings, even if exhibitions with the theme of ancient ink artistry display oil paintings only. In 19**, I was invited to participate in a contemporary art exhibition with the theme of Cultural Revolution introspection. Right on the day before the exhibition opening, the organizer told me that because of the limited space of exhibition hall, all the ink painting works were turned down. Later I went to see the exhibition, in addition to many large oil paintings, there were many videos and installation works. A lot of walls were vacant and there is not problem to hang two or three ink paintings on them.
99 Art Website: Recently “Pure Views: Remote from Streams and Mountains” exhibition curated by Lu Peng was held in San Francisco, U.S. and then such an exhibition will be held in Chengdu Bienniale. In an article, he mentioned that tradition has just started, in the past three decades, our tradition broke due to social and historic reasons. Now he think that we should re-examine and discover tradition, do you think so?
Zhu Wei: Ink painting already exists, whether people pay attention to it or not, it has always been there. Whether tradition should be re-examined and discovered or not, now that someone mentioned this, it will certainly be beneficial to ink painting. But one thing is worth alerting that after twenty or thirty years, especially recent years’ boom and over-speculation, contemporary art has reached the time of creative exhaustion. It might be an opportunity for contemporary art to appear with traditional spirit and make use of tradition. It is not necessarily to truly discover tradition.
Persons with painting experience know that it is very strenuous to draw traditional Chinese objects with oil painting. Because of the limit of technique and materials, there will be a lot of estrangement and the artistic conception is difficult to emerge. I have drawn ancient landscapes and characters with oil painting and you won’t make any comment on them.
Because it is not authentic, it probably makes people feel like to eat water cooked fish with knife and fork.
99 Art Website: In the main body of the appearance of contemporary art, some internationally famous Chinese artists or the international exhibitions planned by famous curators, present the appearance of contemporary Chinese art mainly through oil painting.
Zhu Wei: Well. The causes of this phenomenon are what we have analyzed above.
99 Art Website: Will the artists like you who always carry some traditional and cultural development with the form of ink, our traditional form, have some small-scale activities?
Zhu Wei: Yes. And the scale is not small. In May, there will be a contemporary Chinese ink painting exhibition titled “Contemporary Chinese Ink on Paper” held in a gallery in New York, and the participants are Liu Qinghe, Wu Yi, Wei Dong, Li Jin, Wang Jinsong and me.
99 Art Website: These artists always draw ink paintings.
Zhu Wei: Yes. Wang Jinsong majored ink painting at University, later he painted other paintings and now he comes back to ink painting.
99 Art Website: And the curator?
Zhu Wei: The curator is Nannan, the artistic director of the gallery and Zhu Zhu wrote the article. We just ended another exhibition of contemporary Chinese ink painting, the participants are Liu Dan, Li Huayi, Xu Lei, Li Jin and me, and the location also is in New York.
Spiritually Contemporary and Technically Traditional
99 Art Website: For these artists who now work on contemporary Chinese ink painting creation, take you yourself as an example, what ecology and environment do you think you are in now?
Zhu Wei: I was among the first batch artists to cooperate with foreign galleries in the 1990s. At that time, I was drawing ink paintings. The next year, Wei Dong also joined, he was also drawing ink paintings. At that time there were three big galleries in Hong Kong, Plum Blossoms Gallery, Hanart TZ Gallery and Schoeni Art Gallery. The former acted as an agent of Wei Dong, Wu Guanzhong and me, the second acted as an agent of Fang Lijun, Wang Guangyi and Zhang Xiaogang and the latter acted as an agent of Yang Shaobin and Yue Minjun. In those years, a large number of exhibitions of contemporary Chinese art were held in Hong Kong, “Post 1989: New Art in China” in Hanart TZ Gallery, followed by my solo ink painting exhibition “Beijing Story” in Plum Blossoms Gallery and then the “Faces Behind the Bamboo Curtain: Works of Yue Minjun and Yang Shaobin” in Schoeni Art Gallery. At that time no one felt like to differ ink painting from oil painting, both paintings reflected recent things in China and the prices were the same. At one time, the prices of Wei Dong’s and my paintings were slightly higher than those of oil paintings. Having laid the foundation at that time, we have led good lives. Wei Dong now lives in New York with his family. In the early twenty-first century, contemporary Chinese art returns to mainland, especially when contemporary art enters auction house, the gap of attention and price between ink painting and oil painting has been apparently widened.
99 Art Website: Does this related to the origin and habit of foreign reading?
Zhu Wei: No, but it has something to do with China’s current situation. Since the May Fourth Movement, oil painting, film and play came to China successively, their novelty has not worn off. Just like McDonald’s and KFC, young people like them much. When McDonald’s came to China in Reform and Opening-up years in 1980s, some people even held weddings there. Now it sounds ridiculous, but it is a process of acceptance.
99 Art Website: Film came in, stage play was also westernized and Peking Opera nearly disappeared.
Zhu Wei: Excuse me for interruption, but we still have Peking Opera in fact. Later Peking Opera was revitalized several times, but ink painting and oil painting are different from film and Peking Opera, the expression forms of ink painting and oil painting are the same.
99 Art Website: We still needs someone to promote it.
Zhu Wei: Not one, but it must be a group of persons. Young people like you stress loudly the ink painting at the appropriate time to make people not forget this thing. This is worth being respected.
99 Art Website: From the perspective of contemporary art field, a comparatively small number of artists and organizations work on ink paintings, right?
Zhu Wei: Actually the number is not small. What ink painting requires is artistic ability, a bit like martial arts. Usually people go back to the village for private practice and exert strength in secret, when time for contest is coming, they duke it out on the arena. When will you hear that a group of ink painters live and work in Summer Place, Artist Village of Tong County and Cuige Zhuang?
99 Art Website: We have visited dozen of studios, but when I made my first step into your studio, I feel that the environment of your studio is the best.
Zhu Wei: Thanks. Contemporary ink painters should have such a studio.
99 Art Website: That is to say that ink painting has still followed the feeling of pure remoteness in our tradition.
Zhu Wei: Each place has its own way to support its own inhabitants. Each place has its own way to support its own livestock, its own culture and even its own cucumbers. Chinese cucumber is different from American cucumber. Although both are called cucumber, their appearances and tastes are different. Artists should also be different, so is the contemporary art. Only in this way could contemporary art be fascinating.
Laying stress on tradition should begin from its localization, from its ecology and nature. It is not necessarily to inherit spiritually and it is difficult to inherit. Who had dinner with Shi Tao and who had a drink with Bada Shanren? We even haven’t seen them in person, how do we know what mental state they had and what state of mind they were in, and moreover, what they thought about?
99 Art Website: Now scholars usually hold such an opinion.
Zhu Wei: We should inherit the traditional techniques and materials and improve and supplement them. When we say integrating with tradition, it must be integrating with spirit. But except the common knowledge of “integration of nature and man”, what spirit does the Chinese tradition have? What is traditional spirit? I am afraid that no one can explain them clearly and accurately.
99 Art Website: Chinese ink and wash art has developed for many years technically and materially.
Zhu Wei: Ink painting has a history of over three thousand years and oil painting has a history of merely about seven hundred years. Techniques and materials through exploration of over three thousand years are more mature and comprehensive than those of oil painting through over seven hundred years. We should be confident to inherit, respect and make good use of them.
99 Art Website: The problem on tradition of Chinese ink painting is the problem that it is difficult to preserve the materials of ink painting.
Zhu Wei: To preserve is out of question.
99 Art Website: It is generally accepted that oil paintings are easier to preserve.
Zhu Wei: Chinese people love to debase ourselves. Ink paintings of over two thousand years old are preserved in the big museums all around the world, including China, but the preservation of oil paintings of six or seven years old is still a problem. The canvas of oil painting is thick, and the paint is used thicker than ink painting. After a long time, the paint is easy to dry, become brittle and turn into small fragments. So it should avoid being rolled and light. Western museums must keep constant temperature and humidity to protect oil paintings. Ink paintings do not need such protection.
99 Art Website: Each of our projects will be sorted out by a scholar, because we make presentations from the angle of media, we do some penetrating topics from the angle of scholars.
Zhu Wei: One thing is worthy of mention. So many masters and schools have appeared in seven hundred of oil painting field. Ink painting has a longer history with one peak after another, numerous schools and masters. Study of any school might span several hundred years and it still cannot be sure that it is accurate. It is more difficult to talk and judge in case of involving modernity. Contemporary art in China is basically through cloning and copying. Whether the exploration of an artist is right or wrong, he can refer to the history of Western contemporary art in which there are final conclusions. In this way no big mistakes emerge. However, ink paintings do not exist in West, and there are no references, specially the contemporary ink painting. It is more difficult to judge, no one would dare to take the risk. This is the reason why no one dares to react when Li Xiaoshan made the claim of “ink painting is in dead end”. If some one raises opposition, mostly he opposes from ideological and political point of view, or even just personal attacks.
The marginalization of contemporary ink painting is not because content but materials
99 Art Website: In fact, it seems that art museums, such as National Art Museum of China, still hold many ink painting exhibitions.
Zhu Wei: Mostly, artists pay for the rent.
99 Art Website: They all belong to the older generation.
Zhu Wei: There are also young artists.
99 Art Website: Contemporary ink painting seems to be marginalized gradually in the market.
Zhu Wei: The market of contemporary ink painting is marginalized not because content but materials.
99 Art Website: There is also guidance. Foreign markets mostly sell oil paintings; Sotheby’s and Christe’s are China’s weathervanes.
Zhu Wei: Foreigners are familiar with oil painting and auction is a commercial activity. So, it is easier to judge oil painting than ink painting. Chinese people have just started art collections, so the only way is to follow the foreigners.
99 Art Website: Painting is a kind of visual art. Take “Han Xizai Evening Banquet” as an example, when you see it at that time, you had the feeling of that era, but when you see it now, you have the feeling of the present.
Zhu Wei: “Han Xizai Evening Banquet” was totally the contemporary art at that time, it also was a political pop. Now it seems to become an insurmountable classic.
99 Art Website: Because it subverted the tradition.
Zhu Wei: It didn’t subvert the tradition. It is a description of political struggles. Houzhu of Southern Tang, Li Yu didn’t trust Han Xizai because he was a minister from northern part of China, but he wanted to put him in an important position and even promote him to prime minister at one time. Therefore, Li Yu sent two painters, Gu Hongzhong and Zhou Wenju to supervise Han Xizai. Although Han Xizai was under great pressure, he still enjoyed songs and dances and held banquet everyday to pretend that he was in an easy state. Gu Hongzhong drew a scroll of painting of the scenes which he had memorized. The painting is similar to the montage technique, vivid and fantastic. In my eyes, the protagonists in Gu Hongzhong’s “Han Xizai Evening Banquet” and Da Vinci’s “The Last Supper” are the same, they are both preoccupied. But under the brush of Gu Hongzhong, the characters are lighthearted and jovial, and the scenes are controlled freely. The painting is better in overall mastery.
99 Art Website: In China, the accepted culture still is plum, orchid, bamboo and chrysanthemum.
Zhu Wei: These are common. In the past, basically every household, as long as decent, bought paintings. There are always such scenes in films, the landlord was knocked down and bundles of ink paintings and land deeds were publicly burned in the yard. At least this explains that the landlord had collected ink paintings. In the early 1050s, sketches of Qi Baishi could be bought with only about fifteen yuan.
Except plum, orchid, bamboo and chrysanthemum, there are also big scenes such as “Along the River during the Qingming Festival”.
99 Art Website: That is also realistic.
Zhu Wei: Yes, the realistic approach. “Along the River during the Qingming Festival” depicts the downtown scenes of Bianliang in Northern Song Dynasty, which is today’s Kaifeng City. Equivalently, the painting is a painting of the entire CBD. At that time, the “taxi” was drawn by six horses, equivalent to today’s six-cylinder SUV which we cannot reach that level today. Characters and objects in the painting are very contemporary and fashionable at that time. Over time, they became traditional, so I have said that the relationship between the traditional and the contemporary is the relationship between yesterday and today.
99 Art Website: The traditional spirit raised by so many scholars is not only about paintings but also about society, our thoughts, spirit and appearance.
Zhu Wei: Chinese theorists love to mention spirit, but foreign critics rarely mention it. Many foreign critics wrote articles on me, they didn’t mention spirit but quantify it, specifically. Such articles are easy for readers to understand. Inheriting traditional spirit is an empty phrase, which traditional spirit should we inherit? Promoting traditional culture, but which traditional culture should we promote? What is traditional spirit? And what is traditional culture?
Is it real inheritance or just seeking whatever treatment to cure illness and embracing Buddha’s feet in time of need?
Ink painting needs to be seriously treated and protected because it is our own brand. Only we do it well, it can be of the world and of all mankind. Like your own child, if you yourself don’t like it, it is basically impossible to expect others to praise it.
99 Art Website: Thank you for the interview, it's great!
Zhu Wei: Thank you, happy talk.
Background Information: Zhu Wei was born in Beijing in 1966 and studied successively at the People’s Liberation Army Art Academy, Beijing Academy of Film and China Institute of Art. Zhu Wei made his first appearance in international exhibition in 1993, and has held more than 20 individual exhibitions worldwide ever since. More than seven different editions of special catalogues of his works have been published. His works have been collected by more than 20 domestic and foreign museums.
Zhu Wei is one of the few artists in contemporary Chinese art circle who are known for their ink paintings both at home and abroad. His paintings express social criticism theme with traditional fine brushwork skill. His painting style is clear and full of visual tension. His sculpture and engraving works extending from ink paintings also inherit his consistent style of combining the traditional and the contemporary.
99艺术网 www.99ys.com 2011年5月17日
朱伟：精神不能继承，继承的是技法和材料
99艺术网：宋睿 嘉宾：朱伟（艺术家）
编者按：随着当代艺术市场的火爆和当代艺术品的天价迭出，中国当代艺术这几年吸引了很多人的关注，但同时中国当代艺术的创作也面临着很多的问题，内容的荒诞和形式的多元化让人们感觉当代艺术与现实生活产生了很大的距离。尤其是在西方话语权下的中国当代艺术，该如何当代又该如何传统？在当代艺术中一直处于弱势的水墨画又该如何面对？为此我们采访了当代水墨画家朱伟，希望本次对话能够对中国当代艺术的发展是个有益的探索！
水墨画一直存在，现在重视传统，其实上是在轻视它
99艺术网：朱老师您好！很高兴您接受我们的采访，首先想问一下现在艺术界都在讨论传统与当代的话题，大家普遍认为我们固有的传统文化或者是精神气质应该会在当代艺术领域展现一个新的面貌或者新的转向，您能不能阐述一下您对传统和当代的一个理解呢？
朱伟：首先谢谢您的采访。
传统和当代的关系就是昨天和今天的关系，可以说没有过去就没有现在也没有未来，这是客观的规律。哪一环节有所忽略早晚都得补，而且还要加倍。咱们这个国家就是一最好的例子，当年眼瞅着马上要进入共产主义了，最后还得退回到社会主义初级阶段，踏踏实实搞建设，一心一意谋发展，补上市场经济这一课，而且补得相当激烈、残酷，比当年欧美各国同一时期还要夸张得多。
看得见摸得着的东西可以加班加点迎头赶上，精神和文化则需要更长的时间才能恢复和完善，三十年的努力GDP可以跃居世界第二，再来几个三十年中国的文化也未必能发展到位居世界前列的水平。十年树木百年树人说的就是这个意思。
99艺术网：能不能也简单地阐述一下你现在这个作品的思想有没有从传统里挖掘的一些理念？它的内在脉络大概是什么样的？
朱伟：“外师造化，中得心源”。所谓造化，是指客观世界，自然万物，也就是展现在你眼前的人和事，要学习、模仿和记录，然后沉淀，构思，再把它弄出来。
我画水墨快三十年，使用的材料、技法全部从传统来，和传统有密切的联系。我一直没有脱离开传统，但我描绘的是当下发生的人和事，是正在进行时，也就是人们常说的当代题材。所以我一直没觉得传统和当代是隔离的，古为今用是我画水墨画的理念和创作脉络。
99艺术网：新中国成立以后我们经历文革，改革开放，八十年代末的紧张局势等等这些历史节点，从历史这些事件上来看官方的姿态和西方的潮流在很大程度上决定了人们对艺术、对传统、文化艺术的一个态度，您我觉得现在的传统文化艺术在什么样的一个生态下生存？
朱伟：我觉得不光是新中国成立以后，自打进入近现代历史，西方各国大部分经过了社会变革，经济迅猛发展，增长率也都是以两位数向前发展，GDP不断攀升，实力不断壮大，而中国还是在延续几千年来的封建社会，生产力相比极其低下，混到最后，谁过来都能说几句，打几下，毫无招架还手之力。一九一九年“五四”运动爆发，提出了科学、民主的口号，大量西方先进的科学、技术、文化涌入，由于多年来的积贫积弱，落后挨打，国人对自己的一切都变得极度不自信，人们迫切需要一场全新的革命，打倒和否定过去所有的一切，包括文化，几千年来的水墨画在那一时期第一次受到了严重的摧残和否定。建国后五十年代又提出了水墨画革命，也就是后人所说的“革水墨画的命”，把水墨画弄得人不人，鬼不鬼。文革时期，水墨画被作为反动和腐朽的东西，又被摧残一次。七八年改革开放，八五美术运动又把水墨画给边缘一回。八十年代初期，又有批评家提出“水墨画穷途末路”说，引发了一场全国范围的有关水墨画存亡的大讨论。总之，一百年来由于极度的不自信，水墨画没少被折腾，但折腾来折腾去其结果是水墨画逐渐被边缘化了。水墨画作为中国传统文化的一部分被折腾到这个地步，没外国人什么事，全是我们自己搞的。
99艺术网：离我们现在相对比较近一点的，说到水墨这个问题，关于吴冠中老师提的“笔墨等于零”这个说法，你有什么看法？
朱伟：现在不是笔墨等于不等于零的问题，而是很多以当代名义举办的展览，基本没有水墨画，即使是以古人水墨意境命题的展览，挂的也全部是油画。?八年的时候我接到一个邀请，是关于文革反思题材的一个当代艺术展览，就在展览即将开幕的头一天，主办方告诉我，由于展厅有限，所有水墨作品都被拿下。这个展览后来我去看了，里边除了有很多大幅油画外，还有很多录像和装置，墙面空出来很多，放个两三张水墨画没什么问题。
99艺术网：最近吕澎老师策划的“溪山清远”的展览刚刚在美国旧金山举行，接下来将在成都双年展的时候举行这样一个展览，他在文章中提到传统刚刚才开始，在过去的三十年，由于社会历史的原因，我们的传统出现了断裂，现在他认为应该重新审视和发现传统，您认为是这样的吗？
朱伟：水墨画一直存在，被人们重视或不重视它都在那。传统应不应该重新审视和发现，有人现在想起来提这事，对水墨画来说肯定有益。但是有一点值得警惕，当代艺术经过这二、三十年特别是近些年的火爆和过度炒作，已经到了创作枯竭的时候了，再以传统精神面貌出现、拿传统说事，可能又是一机遇，未必是真的要发现传统。
画过画的人都知道，拿油画画中国传统的东西，很费劲，由于技法和材料的限制，往往会有很多隔阂，意境很难出来。我看过用油画画的古代山水、人物，让你不知该说什么。
由于它的不正宗，可能又让大家用刀子和叉子吃了一回水煮鱼。
99艺术网：在当代艺术现在面貌的主体里边，中国在国际上很出名的一些艺术家也好，很著名的一些策展人在国际上做的一些展览也好，主要的体现中国当代艺术的面貌的还是油画。
朱伟：嗯。这种现象产生的原因就是上面我们分析过的。
99艺术网：现在像您这样一直还是以水墨的形式，以我们传统的形式来承载一些传统文化发展的一些艺术家会不会有一些小范围的活动？
朱伟：有，范围也不小。五月份在纽约一家画廊有个叫“意在笔先”的中国当代水墨画展，有刘庆和、武艺、魏东、李津、王劲松和我。
99艺术网：这些艺术家都是一直在做水墨的。
朱伟：是。王劲松大学是学水墨专业的，后来画了些别的，现在又回来了。
99艺术网：策展人呢？
朱伟：策展人是楠楠，那家画廊的艺术总监，朱朱写的文章。三月份也刚刚结束了另外一个中国当代水墨的展览，有刘丹、李华弋、徐累、李津等等，还有我，也在纽约。
精神上要当代，技法上要传统
99艺术网：您觉得现在从事中国当代水墨绘画创作的这些艺术家，拿您自己举例，您觉得您现在是一个什么样的生态和环境？
朱伟：我是从九十年代初第一拨跟国外画廊合作，当时我画的就是水墨。第二年魏东也来了，他也是画水墨的。当时香港有三大画廊，万玉堂、汉雅轩、少励（Schoeni）。万玉堂代理的是我、魏东，还有吴冠中，汉雅轩代理的是方力钧、王广义、张晓刚，少励代理的是杨少彬、岳敏君。那几年中国当代艺术在香港做了大量的展览：汉雅轩的“‘后八九’中国新艺术展”，紧接着是万玉堂我的“北京故事”水墨个展，然后是少励画廊的“竹帘后的脸-岳敏君杨少彬画展”。当时没人觉得有水墨油画之分，大家说的都是当下中国的事，价格也一样，有一度我和魏东的画略高于他们那几个画油画的。从那时候打下的底，所以一直到现在都过得不错，魏东现在全家住在纽约。二十一世纪初中国当代艺术向本土回归，特别是当代艺术进入拍卖，水墨画油画的关注度和价格才被明显拉开了。
99艺术网：这个跟国外阅读的来历和习惯有关系？
朱伟：跟这个没有关系，跟中国当下的情形有关系。油画和电影、话剧自“五四”运动先后来到中国，至今新鲜劲还没过，就像麦当劳和肯德基，年轻人很喜欢。八十年代改革开放麦当劳刚进来的时候，还有在那结婚的，现在听起来可笑，但这是一个接受的过程。
99艺术网：电影进来了，舞台剧也是西化的，就是京剧什么的就都没有了。
朱伟：还有，坚持，这不后来振兴了几回京剧嘛。但水墨和油画不同于电影和京剧，水墨和油画的表现方式是一样的。
99艺术网：还是要有一个做推动工作的一个人。
朱伟：不是一个人，是一批。像你们这样的年轻人在适当的时机大声强调一下水墨画，让大家不要忘了这事，就很值得让人尊重。
99艺术网：在当代艺术界领域看起来，做当代水墨的艺术家和组织相对比较少了吧？
朱伟：数量其实不少。水墨画讲求的是功力，有点像武术，平时都回村私下里练，暗使劲，擂台上比武的时候，再一决高低。你什么时候听说过圆明园、通县画家村、崔各庄，有一批画水墨的在那扎堆住着？
99艺术网：我们采访过几十个工作室，我刚进来的时候感觉您这个工作室的环境是最好的。
朱伟：谢谢，当代水墨画家应该有这样的工作室。
99艺术网：就是说水墨画还是沿袭了我们传统里面这个清远的感觉，包括一些艺术家的气质也是这样的。
朱伟：一方水土养一方人，一方水土养一方牲口，养一方文化，甚至养一方黄瓜。中国的黄瓜和美国的黄瓜就不一样，长相、味道都不一样，尽管都叫黄瓜。艺术家也应该有所不同，当代艺术也应该如此，这样世界当代艺术才有意思。
重视传统要从它的本土性入手，从生态和习性上入手，不是非要从精神上来继承，也很难继承，谁跟石涛吃过饭，谁跟八大喝过酒？连面都没见过，怎么知道人家当时是什么精神状态，什么心境，怎么想的？
99艺术网：现在的学者都是这么提的。
朱伟：应该继承传统的技法、材料，完善补充它。咱们一说和传统接轨就是精神接轨，除了大家都知道的天人合一，请问中国传统有什么精神？传统精神又是什么？恐怕没人能说得清楚，说得准确。
99艺术网：中国水墨在技法上材料上已经发展很多年了。
朱伟：水墨画有三千多年的历史，油画有七百多年的历史，三千多年摸索出来的技法、材料，怎么也要比七百多年的油画成熟得多，完善得多，我们要有信心继承它，尊重它，用好它。
99艺术网：关于中国水墨画传统的问题，就是水墨的材料和材质都涉及到难以保存这个问题。
朱伟：保存没有问题。
99艺术网：大家一般概念上都觉得油画好保存。
朱伟：中国人老爱毁自己，二千多年的水墨画，包括中国在内，世界各大博物馆里有的是，六七百年的油画到现在保存都是个问题。油画画布厚，颜料使用得也比水墨画厚很多，时间长了容易风干，变脆，变成很小的颗粒，怕卷，怕光，西方博物馆要做到恒温恒湿，防闪光灯什么的，那是用来保护油画。水墨画用不着这么保护。
99艺术网：我们每一个项目都会有一个学者他来做梳理，因为我们媒体的角度更多是做呈现，我们从学者的角度去做一些贯穿性的专题。
朱伟：有一件事倒是值得提出来，油画七百年还出现了那么多的大师和流派，水墨画的历史更长，高峰迭起，流派众多，大师云集,随便研究一个流派可能跨度就是几百年，还不敢肯定是否准确，一贯穿到现在就更难以下嘴和判断；当代艺术在中国基本上是克隆拷贝，艺术家的探索正确与否，看看欧美，翻翻西方当代艺术史，上面都有定论，可以参照，保证不会出太大的错。而水墨画西方没有，没有参照物，特别是当代水墨，更难加以判断，没人敢冒这个险。这就是为什么李小山当年提出“水墨画穷途末路”说没人敢接招。提出反对意见的，也大都是从意识形态、政治角度，甚至只是人身攻击。
当代水墨被边缘化不是因为内容而是因为材料
99艺术网：现在好像其实美术馆这一块，比如中国美术馆，他们还是很多水墨画的展览。
朱伟：大部分都是艺术家掏钱租的。
99艺术网：都是老一代的。
朱伟：年轻的也有。
99艺术网：当代水墨画在市场上好像被慢慢边缘化了。
朱伟：当代水墨市场被边缘化，不是因为内容而是因材料。
99艺术网：还是有引导，国外的市场买油画多，苏富比、佳士得是中国的风向标。
朱伟：外国人对油画熟悉，拍卖又是一个商业行为，所以判断油画要比水墨来得顺手。国人收藏又刚起步，只能跟着外国人走。
99艺术网：绘画来讲是一种视觉艺术，比如《韩熙载夜宴图》，在当时看是当时的感受，现在看是现在的感受。
朱伟：《韩熙载夜宴图》在当时完全是当代艺术，而且还是政治波普。现在看来成了无法超越的经典。
99艺术网：因为他颠覆了传统。
朱伟：倒没颠覆传统。是对政治斗争的描绘。南唐后主李煜不相信韩熙载，因为他是北方来的大臣，但又想重用他，一度想让他当宰相，于是就派了俩画画的顾闳中和周文矩去看他每天在干什么。韩熙载尽管压力很大，但每天还要歌舞升平吃喝玩乐，装着轻松。于是顾闳中就把默记下来的情景画出一幅长卷，类似于蒙太奇的手法，惟妙惟肖，精彩绝伦。在我眼里，顾闳中的《韩熙载夜宴图》和达芬奇的《最后的晚餐》，主人公同样心里有事，但顾闳中刻画的人物轻松诙谐，场面调度自如，整体把握上更胜一筹。
99艺术网：中国大家比较认可的文化还是梅、兰、竹、菊。
朱伟：那是常见的。过去家家户户，只要过得去的，基本都买画。电影里不是常有这样的镜头：地主老财被打倒，成捆的水墨画轴和地契被当众放院子里烧毁，起码说明他家收藏过水墨画。五十年代初齐白石的小品十五六块人民币就能买到。
除了梅、兰、竹、菊，场面大点的还有《清明上河图》等。
99艺术网：也是写实的东西。
朱伟：对，写实的手法，《清明上河图》画的是北宋汴梁、也就是今天开封的闹市市景，相当于画了整个CBD。当时的出租车都是六匹马拉的，相当于六缸SUV，现在我们都做不到。画面上的人和物在当时都是很当代时髦的，时间推移变成了传统，所以说传统和当代就是昨天和今天的关系。
99艺术网：这么多学者提出来的传统精神不光是一个绘画，还是应该是一个社会的，大家的思维，以及精神、面貌。
朱伟：中国的理论家老爱提精神，国外的批评家不怎么提。有不少国外批评家给我写过文章，人家里边没提什么精神，而是把它量化了，具体来说。这样的文章让读者容易看懂，容易理解。继承传统精神是一句空话，请问继承传统哪段精神？弘扬传统文化，请问弘扬传统哪段文化？传统精神是什么？传统文化又是什么？
是真心继承，还是有病乱投医，临时抱佛脚？
水墨画是需要认真对待和爱护的，因为它是我们自己的品牌。把它做好，它才能是世界的，全人类的。就像是自家的孩子，自己就不待见，指望别人说好，那基本是不可能的。
99艺术网：谢谢朱老师能够接受99艺术网采访。
朱伟：谢谢你们。
背景资料：朱伟，1966年出生于北京，先后就学于解放军艺术学院、北京电影学院、中国艺术研究院。自1993年开始以中国水墨画在国际大型展览露面，在世界各地举办多次个人展览。先后出版八种不同版本的个人绘画专集、回顾专集，其作品被国内外二十多家博物馆、美术馆收藏。
朱伟是中国当代艺术界极少数以水墨画蜚声海内外的艺术家之一，他的绘画作品使用传统工笔手法来表现社会批判题材，画风清晰而充满视觉张力，从他的水墨画中延伸出来的雕塑和版画作品也秉承了他传统和现代揉和的一贯风格。 |
