Contemporary artist Zhu Wei speaks with IFENG's "Celebrity Interviews" in Singapore

Yao Dong (the Host): I’m very happy today to have the famous contemporary artist, Mr. Zhu Wei, as a guest on my celebrity interview series. Hello, Mr. Zhu.

Zhu Wei: Hello, hello.

Yao Dong: I’m so happy to have you on my show.

Zhu Wei: I’m very happy too.

Yao Dong: Yes. First, please say hi to our Phoenix fans and all our friends who are watching.

Zhu Wei: Hello everyone.

Yao Dong: Mr. Zhu, what kind of coincidence led you to develop an interest in painting?

Zhu Wei: Well, when I was a child, to be honest, I didn’t do well in my studies. My parents thought that since I wasn’t doing well academically, I probably wouldn’t be able to attend university. The so-called “studies” mostly refer to subjects like math and Chinese. They were worried, thinking that if this doesn’t work out, I should try something else. I’ve always loved drawing since I was little, so I began to learn painting as an alternative to studying.

Yao Dong: There must have been a turning point that made you fall in love with painting.

Zhu Wei: You are right. The first thing is that I had an interest. Looking back now, I realize that my poor performance in subjects like math and Chinese was because my interest was in painting. So, I eventually found my passion.

Yao Dong: Were there any artists in your family?

Zhu Wei: No, there weren’t any. Initially, my family didn’t really support me in painting. They saw it as something not practical.

Yao Dong: No future in it.

Zhu Wei: No future in it. They didn’t see it as a viable career. But I insisted on it, sought out people to learn from, went to the children’s palace, and so on.

Yao Dong: We know you’ve been involved in contemporary art for many years. Looking back on your journey, how do you view contemporary art, especially the understanding of contemporary art in Asian countries?

Zhu Wei: From a global perspective, contemporary art came to Asia relatively late. Especially in China, it came to mainland China with the reform and opening-up, when Western culture and art started to be actively introduced. People were eager to learn, humbly absorbing new ideas. So, contemporary art began entering mainland China in the late 1980s, and it has been about 40 years now. Contemporary art has a unique characteristic—unlike modern or classical art, it gives the power of definition to critics and curators. In the past, whether it was modern or classical art, Chinese painting or Western painting, the evaluation criteria were the same. But contemporary art is different; the critics and curators determine what qualifies as contemporary art. For example, Duchamp’s famous urinal, once deemed art by a curator, became contemporary art in a museum.

Yao Dong: It was displayed on the wall, right?

Zhu Wei: Yes. When curators decide that something is art, they place it in a museum, and it becomes contemporary art. The artist signs it, with the date. But once this piece leaves the museum, it is just something ordinary, possibly discarded as trash. The power of definition was handed to the curators. Contemporary art arrived later in Asia, especially in mainland China, compared to countries like Japan or Korea. Mainland Chinese artists were eager to catch up and worked hard to adopt this new aesthetic. Initially, the media and the art community in China referred to it as experimental art or avant-garde art. Later, they realized this wasn’t accurate. Contemporary art has already been a success. It includes successful artists like Andy Warhol and Jeff Koons, so we cannot call it experimental or avant-garde anymore.

At first, Chinese artists and critics thought it was something new, so they labeled it as experimental or avant-garde, or pioneer. Yes, it was also called pioneer art. But over time, they realized those names were incorrect: as an established art discipline in the modern world, the term “experimental” or “avant-garde” or ”pioneer” is no longer necessary. Everyone knows that anything labeled experimental or avant-garde or pioneer has a high chance of failure. It is possible that you may not even have a 1% chance of success after a year of experimentation in a laboratory. So I am very happy that you called me a contemporary artist just now. If you say (I) am an experimental artist or an avant-garde artist, it means that I may fail soon. The probability may be 50%, the lowest probability is 50%, and it may be 99%. But as a contemporary artist, it is in line with the pulse of the world and the pace of progress.

Yao Dong: How do you understand your own artistic style today? How would you define it?

Zhu Wei: First, please let me introduce the medium of my paintings, that is, the genre and category of the art form. I’ve been practicing ink wash painting for over thirty years. What is ink wash painting? It’s an art form that belongs to a specific culture, to a specific country. For example, oil painting is global now, and you can’t say oil painting is only Italian or Dutch (oil painting was born in the Netherlands in the 15th century, around the 1420s). But when people hear “ink wash painting,” they immediately think of China, because it’s unique to China. Not like film and theater, no one says a movie is a French movie (even though cinema was born in France in 1895), or refer to them as the French movie Hero, or the French movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It’s no longer necessary because they have become a universal language. Ink wash painting hasn’t yet reached that level. This is something my generation of ink painters is working hard on. I was talking to my friends the other day and said ink wash painting has one disadvantage—it’s not well known internationally. For example, oil painting and sculpture are types of contemporary art, but ink wash painting is recognized by a smaller fraction of the global population. Only about one-seventh of the world’s population knows about it.

Yao Dong: Is ink wash painting the same as Chinese painting?

Zhu Wei: In the past, it was called Chinese painting, but later, with the emergence of contemporary art after the reform and opening up in mainland China, people suddenly realized that calling it Chinese painting was disadvantageous. Chinese painting means it's your own painting, your own style, so why should I appreciate it? Therefore, it was changed to a name based on materials. Just like oil painting, where oil paints are used on canvas. For ink wash painting, it is done with water and ink on paper, so it was renamed ink wash painting. By calling it a very regional way, you had already placed yourself in a position of being discriminated against. In the past, Chinese painting was a source of pride, and art schools would always prioritize it. Among all the majors, whether it was Chinese painting, oil painting, printmaking, or sculpture, Chinese painting was always placed at the top. It was like a vulnerable group that needed support, and so it was forcefully placed first. In fact, this created a very passive situation for Chinese painting. Now, only about one-seventh of the population knows about ink wash painting. But how many people are actually engaged in ink wash painting? It's impossible for all over a billion people to be artists. I roughly estimate that there are about one or two million people. This group includes university professors, those teaching ink wash painting in art schools. It also includes retired cadres, who, even after retirement, paint grapes or do some calligraphy at home. These people are all considered part of the ink wash painting community. Then there are professional artists, professional ink painters. This is the current position of ink wash painting.

Yao Dong: You now integrate ink wash painting into contemporary art. How should we understand your artistic style?

Zhu Wei: Your question is a good one. Ink wash painting has merged with contemporary art, but it’s hard to change. If you want to change, you’d have to throw away the ink, the water, the materials, and the paper. For example, if I want to paint this painting and I don’t paint on paper, and I don’t use ink, then I can simply paint oil paintings and call it contemporary art. But that’s not it. I don’t want to throw away this tradition. Even though tradition has its limitations, I want to make an effort to bring it forward, to merge it with the present and step into contemporary art. It can feel very tiring, because others don’t always understand. For instance, after you finish an oil painting, as we all know, contemporary oil paintings are simpler now. Once completed, they’re just framed and exhibited in museums and galleries. Ink wash painting doesn’t work that way. You need to mount it. From the very start, you’ve added an unnecessary step compared to oil painting. If you don’t mount it, the painting is like scrap paper. If you just hang it, what is it? It’s neither installation art nor performance art—it's nothing. This is because of tradition. Tradition is something that can be found in textbooks, museums, and many places. As long as it’s a top-tier museum, it will have Chinese paintings, Asian paintings. It’s like a dish, like a side dish. If your museum doesn’t have Chinese painting, it’s not considered an authoritative museum. But this doesn’t mean people consider it the mainstream style of painting. It may even include folk paintings, like peasant paintings. Speaking of peasant paintings, they’re not even native to China—they come from the Netherlands. So, when ink wash painting moves forward, there are many barriers that we’ve set for ourselves. No one is stopping you, it’s you who set the barriers. This includes writing on the paintings, stamping them, and calling it calligraphy and painting—this is all something we’ve imposed on ourselves. Then we say, “Ink wash painting is so hard, it can’t become contemporary.” But that’s something you’ve made happen yourself.

Yao Dong: So, your ink wash paintings are integrated into the contemporary world.

Zhu Wei: To integrate with the contemporary, we should try to shed what is unnecessary, just like Western painting. Taking Van Gogh’s paintings as an example, did you see any stamps on Van Gogh's works? Did he write anything on them? Even if it’s in English, did he write anything? There are also many people in the West who write well in English, just like calligraphy, and it looks very beautiful, using a quill pen. But why don’t they write on their paintings? Because painting is painting. The appreciation of ink wash painting itself has obstacles, and if you add a bunch of things that people don’t even understand, even if it's in English, they won’t be familiar with the historical references and allusions you wrote. People are busy; why should I take time out to study your painting? Why should I buy it, or go to a museum to look at it? That just doesn't feel right. So, ink wash painting has set up many barriers for itself, and yet people are proud of it, saying, “Look at my beautiful calligraphy, look at this stamp, look at this seal carving that has a feeling of epigraphy.” This hinders the integration of ink wash painting with the international art scene. Then, when it doesn’t integrate, they complain and say, “Look, you don’t understand ink wash painting.” If it goes further, they even call it discrimination, cultural discrimination. It’s basically a paradox, back and forth, over and over again.

Yao Dong: In your work, I’ve noticed you like to use yellow a lot. Is it a traditional choice?

Zhu Wei: Yes. The yellow color is, as you mentioned, part of how to integrate with the contemporary. Classical paintings have been passed down for thousands of years, and the main color on them is yellow for they are very ancient. In ink wash painting, this color is ochre. Ochre is a brownish, black-red, a bit like coffee color. This is because it has been around for thousands of years...

Yao Dong: The aged feeling?

Zhu Wei: Yes, exactly. It's the result of thousands of years of time, smoked and singed, which has turned into this. So, my paintings have a lot of these colors. The reason for this is that while I’m painting contemporary things, how can I prove that they are related to tradition? First of all, in terms of color, even though the subjects are contemporary, the colors, techniques, and methods were used by the ancients. When people look at it, they think it looks classical, but then they see things like mobile phones, and they immediately understand.

Yao Dong: Would you prefer collectors and fans to refer to your work as contemporary art or ink wash painting? Which form of recognition do you lean toward more?

Zhu Wei: Your question is really very professional and precise. Why? If we're purely talking about contemporary art, like you just said, I’m happy if you call me a contemporary artist. But when it comes to more difficult matters, if you ask me, I’d rather say I’m an ink wash painter, because that proves how hard it is. As for contemporary artist, there are plenty of them. There’s no shortage of contemporary artists around the world, but there are not many who can bring a traditional form of art from a particular nation or ethnicity, like ink wash painting, and integrate it into contemporary art. So, at that point, I’d rather say I’m an ink wash painter. But I’m taking a risk. As an ink wash painter, it’s possible that I can’t bring it into the contemporary realm, or making the process more difficult. People might say, “This is a mixture of everything, it's neither contemporary nor traditional, it's neither ink wash nor oil painting, it's nothing.” By naming myself an ink wash painter, I’m basically asking for trouble then.

Yao Dong: Is there a contradiction between traditional ink wash painting and contemporary art in your work?

Zhu Wei: There’s a kind of contradiction in it—the theme of the painting itself is contradictory, and it’s easy to get caught between tradition and contemporary (which leads to conflict). In Western culture, it’s rare for an artist to get stuck in this position of figuring out how to merge tradition with contemporary. Contemporary art is just contemporary. For example, with Andy Warhol, when I look at his work, I see something purely contemporary. He doesn’t have the responsibility or obligation to bring tradition into it. But when I paint ink wash painting, I can’t do that. I can’t move too fast, because if I do, I’ll distance myself too much from tradition, and in the end, I’ll end up with something that feels out of place, neither here nor there. So, I have to move slowly, but I can’t stop either.

Yao Dong: This is a master-level way of thinking. The difficulty itself is part of the message.

Zhu Wei: If I succeed, I’ll be a master. This is what keeps me going—I want to make it happen. If I don’t succeed, then there was once a person who struggled with this for 30 years, almost 40 years, only to end in failure.

Yao Dong: What are the similarities and differences between traditional ink wash painting and contemporary art?

Zhu Wei: The similarity is that the tradition was contemporary art at the time. For example, the famous Along the River During the Qingming Festival, a painting from the Song Dynasty. It depicted the streets of that time.

Yao Dong: So, it was contemporary art.

Zhu Wei: Yes, at that time, some carts were drawn by four horses, some by six—it's like when we say something is a four-cylinder engine and another is a six-cylinder engine.

Yao Dong: Yes, I see.

Zhu Wei: It was contemporary art back then. However, the masterpieces of the time, after several hundred or even thousands of years, have become traditional classics. So when we look at contemporary work today, if it explains contemporary well and accurately—like Andy Warhol, for instance—then hundreds or thousands of years from now, people will look at it and think, "Yes, this is classical, and it’s a classic." At that point, it is no longer contemporary. Contemporary art is always the state of the time, of that moment, but eventually, the masterpieces of today will become classics.

Yao Dong: Do you have any apprentices now?

Zhu Wei: No, I don’t dare to take apprentices. I feel like I’m still in the process of climbing, and when you're in the climbing stage, you need to travel light. If I take someone along with me, they might just imitate me because they’re always watching me. If I don’t succeed, I would end up harming them.

Yao Dong: In the process of creation, there is often a phenomenon we call a bottleneck period—when creativity stalls, and you just can't seem to move forward. Have you ever experienced such a period? And how do you handle it?

Zhu Wei: I have a bottleneck period every year, strictly speaking. Some people might say, "This person never has a bottleneck, he’s always pushing forward," but actually, I do. It's just that my rhythm is faster. The heartbeat of others might be like this, but mine is faster—so while they might experience a bottleneck for five years, I can resolve mine in five weeks. I don’t dare to drag it on for too long, because if you wait too long, you might never recover.

Yao Dong: So, when you encounter a bottleneck, you must have a way to transform it. What is your method of transformation?

Zhu Wei: I have a method. If I’m stuck with ink wash painting, I turn to sculpture. After doing a lot of sculptures, I found that far more people appreciate my sculptures, than the ink wash paintings I’ve spent a long time working on. It’s not that I’m exceptionally talented, but sculpture is an international language, a universal language—it’s like hard currency. The ink wash painting I create is like China’s own currency; whether or not people exchange it depends on their mood. But sculpture is universal—everyone understands it, and you don’t need to explain. People’s understanding of sculpture is far beyond what the artist might expect. It's like oil painting, which has been appreciated for generations, so when people see it, they immediately understand-the copper, the texture. I realized this, and now, whenever I feel stuck in painting, I switch to sculpture. And sometimes, when I get frustrated with sculpture, I do printmaking. This is a balance. I’ve made over three hundred sculptures, and most countries around the world have them displayed. People say, “Stop now, you can see those two figures standing everywhere, even in many places in Singapore.” I feel embarrassed to continue making more, otherwise it will just seem like I’m grabbing money.

Yao Dong: Do you prefer your works to be called “a piece of work” or “a painting”?

Zhu Wei: In contemporary art, it’s a "piece of work." They don’t emphasize painting because contemporary art doesn’t focus on easel painting—like oil painting. It’s best to just express your concept clearly without painting. Nowadays, many people prefer to call it, like you mentioned, "a piece of work". It could be a painting, or an installation, or even performance art—just you standing up and walking around is your work. This is the shift that has happened.

Yao Dong: I see. So, Mr. Zhu, in your contemporary art works, what kind of message do you want to convey?

Zhu Wei: What I want to convey is that, even up to now, China has such a long history. Some say it’s 3,000 years, some say it’s 5,000 years—anyway, it has a history. I hope this history can be combined with the present. And ink wash painting has the greatest advantage in this combination. As we mentioned earlier, ink wash painting has so many obstacles. If ink wash painting is turned into contemporary art, and people around the world start painting this ink wash painting, it will immediately solve the creative and expressive problems of ink wash painting. When we talk about expression, it’s about what you want to express. I want ink wash painting to become international, so everyone benefits. Each person will express for me. Whatever they paint on rice paper with ink wash painting will be as if it’s something I want to express. Some of these expressions I may not even have thought of, and even things that ancient Chinese ink wash artists couldn’t imagine 2,000 or 3,000 years ago, people from all over the world will complete for me.

Yao Dong: I see. Mr. Zhu, do many masters and artists from the ink wash painting school accept this integration?

Zhu Wei: Not only do they not accept it, but in the 1990s, there was even a discussion about whether the brushwork meant anything. Mr. Wu Guanzhong once discussed this issue with a columnist from Hong Kong’s Wen Hui Bao. Because ink wash painting involves brushwork and skill, Wu Guanzhong argued that brushwork means nothing. Actually, this is my idea too—don’t get stuck on brushwork and skill. The problem is that rice paper, to be blunt, is a bit like toilet paper—you can’t control the ink. Once the brush touches it, the ink spreads all over. Oil painting doesn’t have this problem. Over the course of thousands of years, many painters have said, "I have great control over my brushwork," or "I’m very skilled." What they were talking about is a physical phenomenon, not artistic creation. The paper is immature, and you dip a brush full of water on it—can you control it from bleeding? Even you have controlled it into a certain size, is that really your skill? Is it necessary in art? No, it’s not. It’s a physical phenomenon, not an artistic one. Wu Guanzhong also had a discussion with Wan Qingli, who said brushwork means everything. After thirty years, I realized that the two were talking past each other. They had been debating in the media for ages, but in the end, they were speaking from different platforms.

Yao Dong: Indeed. So, Mr. Zhu, we know that your works are widely recognized in Southeast Asia and around the world, and your works are displayed in the best auction houses and famous galleries. Do you think your artistic value or your peak has been reached?

Zhu Wei: I haven’t reached my peak yet. Before this exhibition, I said that this exhibition is essentially like a punctuation mark, well, more like a brief pause in terms of my meticulous painting. As you said, every artist goes through a bottleneck in creation. For me, it’s not that I’ve reached a bottleneck, but rather I’ve chosen to stop here. I can say that I have already done very well in integrating my meticulous painting, my contemporary style, into the realm of contemporary consciousness and art. Some critics and some books say that Zhu Wei is the first person to bring meticulous painting into contemporary art, and others say that Zhu Wei brought ink wash painting to the doorstep of contemporary art.

Yao Dong: Can I understand it like, since you’re taking a break, your current works won’t have (future exhibition plan)?

Zhu Wei: It has. This exhibition is a summary of my recent work, but next year’s exhibitions are already being planned. There are several exhibitions, completely using new methods...now I have the experience and ability to solve it. There are galleries and institutions that recognize me because of my previous success. So, when I say I want to do experiment, they trust me. If I didn’t have that recognition before, if I had knocked on doors saying I wanted to change, no one would have paid attention to me. I have to start—no more staying in this comfortable zone. It’s meaningless now. My exhibitions next year and in the following years will use a new form of ink wash painting—mainly in black and white, and small formats, to explore new things. Just recently, a gallery asked if I could paint larger pieces. I said, "No, I can only paint on handkerchief-sized paper." They said, "If you paint larger, people will like it more." I said, "I can’t control a piece larger than this; I can only paint this small."

Yao Dong: Why do you feel like you can’t control it?

Zhu Wei: It’s because I never used to paint freehand, and no one paints the kind of freehand I’m doing now. So I can’t control it. I have to remove the traces of the brushwork, remove the lines, and remove...

Yao Dong: I understand—it’s a process of exploration?

Zhu Wei: Yes, exactly. I’m removing the conventional mindset people had about ink wash painting, that it should be done this way or that way. I don’t follow any of that, none of it. Of course, this is a reasonable experiment, not something like superstitious nonsense, that’s not it. I’m doing something new, and I’ve shown it to everyone, with some medias publishing it. People all said it works. So, I’m using this new medium to create this batch of paintings.

Yao Dong: Moving forward in your artistic journey, do you feel satisfied with your current state?

Zhu Wei: I’ve just found a new way to express ink wash painting, which can bring ink wash painting closer to contemporary art. But this isn’t something I can do alone as a contemporary artist. What I’m trying to do now is find a way for others to understand it, even foreign artists who might come to paint in this style. It’s possible that they may do it better than I do and eventually replace me, creating better work than mine.

Yao Dong: There’s an interesting phenomenon here. In the West, in Europe and America, do they consider your work as contemporary art?

Zhu Wei: They think the content of my work is contemporary art, because when they look at it, they understand that China was like this for a period of time. But if you tell them to look further ahead, that you are promoting national art, they don’t have that concept. What does promoting national art mean? Like saying Van Gogh promoted Dutch art, it sounds awful. Art is universal. If you focus on promoting art from one village or one country, what’s the point? People will feel irrelevant to Van Gogh, Dutch art, or oil painting, being pushed far away. With ink wash painting, if you tell people, "Look, this is China’s thousands of years of history. Do you know Laozi? Laozi said..." But how could they know? You ask young people in China (and they might not know either), because no one has time. You’re basically pushing them aside with culture, and that makes it impossible for them to appreciate your art. They can’t even understand it, and if you start telling stories, it gets even worse. The materials themselves are unfamiliar to them, so they distance themselves from it.

Yao Dong: Mr. Zhu, you’ve created many works so far, and you’re loved by collectors. What is the next stage you want to reach, and what kind of breakthrough do you want to achieve?

Zhu Wei: That’s an interesting question, and I want to answer it. For an artist, in the end, there are two outcomes they desire: they want both money and fame, just like the cross-talk comedian Guo Degang said. But I think success in artistic creation should be your pursuit. As long as, as an artist, you can sustain your creation, that’s enough. No one measures an artist by how much money they’ve earned to judge whether they are an outstanding artist or not. Nor do we measure whether a businessman can paint to judge if they are a successful businessman. For example, there are annual rankings in business, some created by Chinese people, some by foreigners, various rankings. Has any ranking ever evaluated a businessman and said one of the criteria is that the businessman must be able to paint? If they can’t paint, they can’t make it to the top, or the richest person must be able to paint, and if they can’t, they don’t qualify? No one evaluates like this, for that’s very confusing. So, for an artist, the measure is your artistic creation, and your market success is not a factor in assessing your art. Sometimes artists are pushed by society. Because in a certain period, society needed to fill in a blank (like thirty years ago, when China’s economy nearly collapsed). Society is made up of various factors, including the economy. In the past, there was a gap in this area, and now everyone is trying to make up for it. Many people think this is the most important thing, so everyone is doing this. Whether it’s movie actors or stars, they all measure themselves by how much they earn or how high their box office numbers are. But this is not the standard for measuring art. Every industry has its own specific standards, and for artists, the standard is about they work and artistic creation, and ultimately, that’s what matters. Hundreds or thousands of years later, no one has said that the Zhu Da, or Wu Daozi, or Van Gogh were evaluated by how rich or poor they were when they lived. Van Gogh died in poverty, or in destitution, but that didn’t mean that his paintings were destitute too. The standards for measurement are different.

Yao Dong: Yes. You mentioned earlier about tradition and modernity, and someone raised the question about the current AI era. Do you think AI can replace artists?

Zhu Wei: I can tell you clearly that AI cannot replace artists. Even if technology advances further in the future, it will never replace the instantaneous expression of human thought. Take film for example. Nowadays, film is almost considered intangible cultural heritage, and although many Chinese artists have been working against this, they want to delay the process. Because now we have television, and the internet is about to replace TV. However, people still go to movie theaters to appreciate films, and some even buy tickets and queue to see a play. This kind of expression, no matter how advanced AI or technology becomes, cannot be replaced. For instance, AI can create paintings that are better than those made by humans, but they lack emotion. There’s no human touch in them. I’ve looked at AI-designed works; they are beautiful and smooth, and they can create whatever you ask, but there’s no human feeling involved. AI doesn’t have that moment of hesitation, the emotions that come with creativity—sometimes when you’re not sure, you hesitate, or feel timid. AI doesn’t have that. If you input something, it won’t understand how much or how little to apply.

Yao Dong: I see. So, how long does it usually take for you to complete a piece of work?

Zhu Wei: Sometimes, it can take over two years to complete a painting, especially larger works. On the other hand, sometimes I can finish a small painting in just one day.

Yao Dong: Why is there such a big difference?

Zhu Wei: Because at times I suddenly get an idea, and I can paint from morning till night, finishing the work before I sleep. But when I’m painting something I’m familiar with, I might get tired after a while, take a break, have a drink, or even a bottle of beer. It’s hard; you’re just trying to get through the painting. However, when the idea hits, I can finish it in no time. And when I look at it years later, I won’t think it’s rough or lacking in detail, because every brushstroke was carefully considered. That moment of inspiration—I didn’t believe in it before, but now I truly believe that inspiration exists.

Yao Dong: Yes. We often chat with many fans and friends, and they believe that the higher a painting is sold for, the more valuable it is as a collectible, which means the artist is the best. How do you see this common understanding?

Zhu Wei: It depends on your perspective. As I mentioned earlier, if we use the standards for judging a successful entrepreneur, based on rankings or similar factors, to measure an artist, then that’s a whole new category. If you focus on artistic creation, then that’s a different ranking. The same goes for entrepreneurs. If you rank them based on factors of success, that’s one list, with people like Jack Ma at the top. But if you say that an entrepreneur has to be good at painting as well, then that’s a whole separate list.

Yao Dong: It depends on how you look at it.

Zhu Wei: Yes. Some entrepreneurs can paint and are also good at calligraphy, but in their business life, they might be failures—they've gone bankrupt six times. So the standard for judgment depends on what you use to measure success. There will always be someone to help you sort through that.

Zhu Wei: I wouldn’t say I’m successful. I’m fortunate that, for now, I can focus all my energy on painting and still survive. That’s quite lucky. In 2018, Sichuan Fine Arts Institute invited me…they invited more than a dozen contemporary artists from different fields, and I was the one representing ink wash painting. They asked me to give a talk at their small theater, and though it’s called a "small" theater, there actually were thousands of people there. I spoke about art creation, and one thing I said was: If you go to college just to get a degree, just to say you studied art and got a diploma to use as a credential, then you don’t need to listen to me. I said it was cold that day, it was in November, but if you want to be an artist and you have confidence, then hang on a little longer. I said if you want to be an artist, you need to create a good piece of work. Otherwise, how can you call yourself an artist? It’s the same with a director. If you say you’re a great director, where is your film? It could either be box office hits or awards. The same goes for art. An artist needs to create a good work. And what makes a good piece? I think there are three criteria for evaluating-these can be applied to any form of artistic creation. First, the theme—the subject matter you want to paint. For example, in classical art, artists painted God, praising God. Artists like Michelangelo, Raphael, and Leonardo da Vinci, all thought their main task, their theme, was to glorify God, and they did it beautifully.

Yao Dong: The theme.

Zhu Wei: Hmm, that’s the subject—glorifying God. Some also reflect modern themes. For instance, modern art has Van Gogh, who came to challenge classical art. Classical art focused on perfect brushstrokes, painting scenes almost like photographs. But with Van Gogh’s generation, it changed. He wanted to add his personal touch—his brushstrokes were almost neurotic, and in the end, it was recognized. The subject was different from the classical painters. They painted God, while he painted ordinary people—his brother, his sister—that’s the subject.

When it comes to contemporary art, take Andy Warhol for example. He used things like canned soup, which is something you often see in supermarkets, like the kind of pickled mustard greens we have—what’s its brand, Yuqian or Fuling? In daily life, we see it all the time and don’t think much of it. But he didn’t see it like that. He photographed it, arranged many of them, and hung them on the wall. People would look at it and say, "Wow, art is so close to us." That’s a breakthrough in subject matter.

Second is technique. You know, oil painting has a history of 700 years, and ink painting has a history of 2,700 years. Over time, they’ve developed various techniques, and some are so well-executed that it’s almost impossible to surpass them. But then, you might say, "I want to break through in technique, I want to surpass it." Is that possible? Yes, it is. There’s Gerhard Richter, a contemporary artist who made a breakthrough in technique. After photography was invented, artists found themselves with fewer opportunities to make a living. It used to be that artists painted what they saw, and if it resembled life, they were considered good artists. Now, a photo can capture everything instantly—sharp and lifelike. Moreover, models don’t need to sit for months. This is a technical issue. Richter, now number one, was able to break through in technique. How? For example, in the past, if a photo was blurry, that’s usually a mistake. Like when we are chatting here, and over there the focus is off, that video definitely can’t be used. But Richter did the opposite: he deliberately painted blurry photos. In photography, blurry shots are seen as poor quality, and photographers would be criticized. Richter’s painting blurry photos became a language in itself, a language that challenges photography’s standards. This created a new position for painting.

Before him, there was another modern artist, Picasso, who was also forced into a corner by photography. He created Cubism. And then there’s Kandinsky and Duchamp. Cubism, is the style where Picasso painted a person’s ear and the back of their head all at the front. Photography couldn’t do that. If you succeed in technique, like Richter, you become number one. Richter is now 92, and no artist has surpassed his prices.

We talked about subject matter earlier, and then technique. The third point is the medium—the medium of expression. What do you use to express your successful technique and brilliant, unexpected theme? That’s the medium. For me, my medium is ink painting, using rice paper. For oil painters, their medium is canvas and oil paint. But contemporary artists are solving this problem. Some artists don’t use traditional materials at all. Duchamp took a urinal, put it in a museum, and let the viewers to think what the medium is, and what the material is. So, in the medium, he broke through, and art critics and curators accepted it. As I said earlier, in contemporary art, the power of definition is in the hands of critics. they were the first to break through the established standards of painting evaluation, and they believe that if you place a urinal in a museum, it becomes contemporary art. It's considered excellent contemporary art, and everyone bows to your contemporary art and your idea. Because the idea is the most important—anyone can become an artist if they practice painting. As Andy Warhol said, that everyone can be an artist, and there is even a time frame, for 15 minutes.

So there are three things: subject, technique, and medium. If you invented a new medium, you invent something where you don't use rice paper or ink, yet people still think it's ink and wash painting. If that happens, that person is truly impressive. As of now, no one can do ink painting without rice paper; if they do, it's not really ink painting anymore. It would be a watercolor, which is painted on cardboard.

Yao Dong: Yes, indeed.

Zhu Wei: So, these three issues—if you want to be an artist, you must break through in one of these three areas. Think about these three questions day and night—whichever one of them... Art doesn't need to achieve all three at once, or even two; just breaking through in one of them (is enough). Take Richter, for example. He only broke through in the second issue, technique, and became a master. And the whole world acknowledges that—if he randomly paints an abstract piece, it becomes one of the most expensive in the world because that is so rare.

Yao Dong: Do you have any artists you admire?

Zhu Wei: Yes, I admire Richter.

Yao Dong: I see. We are very happy today to interview the famous contemporary artist, Zhu Wei. As we approach the end of the program, we would like to ask you to send some blessings and messages to our fans and friends who are following us on Phoenix.

Zhu Wei: I believe appreciating contemporary art requires thinking. You need to use your eyes, your experience, and your accumulation to view contemporary art. Whether it's contemporary art or any artwork, as long as you use your judgment and experience, I believe it will always be correct. Don't use your ears to listen. Don't listen to what others tell you something is before you form your own understanding. If you approach it without a preconceived notion or a fixed concept, only then can you appreciate contemporary art. Otherwise, you might repeatedly revisit it, doubting why your impression differs from others' opinions. So, use your eyes to look, don't listen first—look first. Appreciate more, appreciate a lot.

新加坡凤凰网二零二四年十一月《名人访谈录》

姚董（主持人）：今天我非常高兴能够邀请到著名的当代艺术家朱伟先生做客我的名人访谈节目。您好，朱伟先生。

朱伟：您好，您好。

姚董：非常高兴您能够来我的节目。

朱伟：我也非常高兴。

姚董：是的，首先请向我们凤凰的粉丝以及所有正在观看的朋友们打个招呼。

朱伟：大家好。

姚董：朱伟先生，是什么样的机缘让您对绘画产生了兴趣？

朱伟：嗯，小时候说实话，我的学习成绩不太好。我的父母认为既然我在学业上不行，可能也考不上大学。所谓的“学业”大多是指数学、语文这些科目。他们担心，如果这条路不行，那我就应该去尝试其他的事情。我从小就非常喜欢画画，所以我开始把画画当成一种替代学业的方式。

姚董：一定有某个转折点让您真正爱上了绘画吧。

朱伟：您说得对。首先是我有兴趣。回头看，我现在明白，数学、语文这些科目不太好，是因为我的兴趣在绘画上。所以，我最终找到了我的激情所在。

姚董：您家里有从事艺术的人员吗？

朱伟：没有。当时我家并不支持我做绘画，他们认为这并没有实际的前景。

姚董：没有前途。

朱伟：对，没有前途。他们认为这并不是一个可行的职业。但我坚持了下来，找人学习，去少年宫等地方。

姚董：我们知道您已经从事当代艺术很多年了。回顾您的艺术历程，您如何看待当代艺术，特别是亚洲国家对当代艺术的理解？

朱伟：从全球的角度看，当代艺术进入亚洲的时间相对较晚。尤其是在中国，它是随着改革开放进入的，当时西方的文化和艺术开始被积极引进。人们迫切地想要学习，谦虚地吸收新的观念。所以，当代艺术开始在1980年代末进入中国大陆，至今已经有大约40年了。当代艺术有一个独特的特点——与现代艺术或古典艺术不同，它赋予了批评家和策展人定义的权力。过去，不管是现代艺术、古典艺术，中国画还是西方画，评判标准是一样的。但当代艺术不同，评判标准是由批评家和策展人来决定的。例如，杜尚著名的小便池，曾被策展人认为是艺术，它就成为了博物馆里的当代艺术。

姚董：它被挂在墙上，没错吧？

朱伟：是的。当策展人认为某个东西是艺术时，他们就会把它放进博物馆，它就变成了当代艺术。艺术家签上名，写上日期。但是一旦这个作品离开了博物馆，它就变成了普通的东西，可能甚至被丢弃当作垃圾。定义的权力交给了策展人。当代艺术在亚洲的到来比较晚，尤其是中国大陆，比起日本、韩国等国家要晚。中国大陆的艺术家迫切地想赶上，努力吸收这一新的审美。起初，中国的媒体和艺术界把它称作实验艺术或前卫艺术。后来，他们意识到这种说法并不准确。当代艺术已经是一个成功的领域，像安迪·沃霍尔、杰夫·昆斯这样的艺术家都取得了很大的成功，所以我们不能再称它为实验性艺术或前卫艺术了。

刚开始，中国的艺术家和批评家认为这是新兴的东西，所以他们把它称作实验艺术、前卫艺术，或者先锋艺术。是的，它也被称作先锋艺术。但是随着时间的推移，他们意识到这些称谓并不准确：作为一个已经确立的艺术学科，“实验”或“前卫”或“先锋”这些词已经不再适用了。大家都知道，任何被称为实验、前卫或先锋的东西，很有可能失败。你可能会发现，经过一年的实验，在实验室里，成功的几率可能连1%都没有。所以，我很高兴您刚才称我为当代艺术家。如果您说我是一位实验艺术家或先锋艺术家，那意味着我很快就会失败。失败的可能性是50%，最低可能性是50%，甚至可能是99%。但作为一位当代艺术家，这符合世界的脉动和进步的步伐。

姚董：今天您是如何理解您自己的艺术风格的？您会如何定义它？

朱伟：首先，请允许我介绍一下我的绘画媒介，也就是艺术形式的种类和类别。我已经从事水墨画超过三十年了。什么是水墨画？它是一种特定文化、特定国家的艺术形式。例如，油画现在是全球化的，你不能说油画只属于意大利或者荷兰（油画诞生于荷兰，约在15世纪，1420年代左右）。但是当人们听到“水墨画”时，他们立刻会想到中国，因为水墨画是独特的中国艺术形式。像电影和戏剧一样，没有人会说某部电影是法国电影（即使电影诞生于1895年的法国），或者称其为“法国电影《英雄》”或“法国电影《卧虎藏龙》”。这些已经不再必要，因为它们已经成为了普遍的语言。水墨画还没有达到那个水平。这是我们这一代水墨画家的努力方向。前几天我和朋友们在聊，我说水墨画有一个劣势——它在国际上不太为人所知。例如，油画和雕塑是当代艺术的一部分，但水墨画在全球认知度相对较低。大约只有全球七分之一的人知道它。

姚董：水墨画和中国画是一样的吗？

朱伟：过去它叫做中国画，但后来，随着改革开放后当代艺术的兴起，人们突然意识到，称其为中国画并不有利。中国画意味着它是属于你自己的画，你自己的风格，那我为什么要欣赏它呢？因此，它改用了基于材料的名字。就像油画一样，油画是用油画颜料在画布上作画。而水墨画则是用水和墨在纸上作画，因此它被重新命名为水墨画。以这种非常地域化的方式来命名，你已经把自己置于一个被歧视的境地。过去，中国画曾是很自豪的事情，艺术院校总是优先考虑它。在所有专业中，无论是中国画、油画、版画还是雕塑，中国画总是排在第一位。它就像一个需要保护的弱势群体，因此被强制放在最前面。其实，这样的做法造成了中国画非常被动的局面。现在，全球只有七分之一的人知道水墨画，但有多少人真正从事水墨画创作呢？不可能全中国十四亿人都是艺术家。我粗略估计，可能只有一两百万的人在从事水墨画创作。这个群体包括大学教授，艺术学校里教水墨画的老师，还有一些退休的干部，即便退休了，也会在家画画葡萄或者做些书法。这些人都算是水墨画的创作者。然后是专业艺术家，专业的水墨画家。这就是水墨画目前的位置。

姚董：现在您将水墨画融入当代艺术，您认为我们应该如何理解您的艺术风格？

朱伟：您的问题很好。水墨画与当代艺术的融合，但它并不容易改变。如果你想改变，你必须放弃墨、放弃水、放弃材料和纸张。例如，如果我想画这幅画，而我不在纸上画，不用墨，那我就可以直接画油画，称之为当代艺术。但这不是我想要的。我不想抛弃这个传统。虽然传统有其局限性，我想做的是努力把它带到前沿，融入当代，进入当代艺术。这个过程可能很累，因为别人并不总是理解。例如，当你完成一幅油画时，正如大家所知，现在的当代油画更简单。完成之后，它就可以直接框好，在博物馆和画廊展出。水墨画不一样，它需要装裱。从一开始，相比油画，你就多了一步不必要的工序。如果你不装裱它，那幅画就像废纸一样。如果你只是挂起来，那它是什么呢？它既不是装置艺术，也不是行为艺术——它什么都不是。这是因为传统的原因。传统可以在教科书、博物馆等地方找到。只要是顶级的博物馆，它一定会有中国画、亚洲画。它就像一道菜，像一道配菜。如果你的博物馆没有中国画，就不算是权威博物馆。但这并不意味着人们认为它是主流的绘画风格。它可能甚至包括民间画，像农民画。说到农民画，它们其实并不是中国土生土长的，它们来自荷兰。所以，当水墨画走向前沿时，我们自己设下了很多障碍。没有人阻止你，实际上是你自己设置了障碍。这些障碍包括在画作上写字、盖章、把它叫做“书画”，这些都是我们自己加上的。然后我们说：“水墨画这么难，它不能成为当代艺术。”

姚董：在您的作品中，我注意到您喜欢大量使用黄色。这是传统的选择吗？

朱伟：是的，黄色，正如您所提到的，是与当代艺术融合的一部分。古典绘画传承了几千年，而它们的主要颜色就是黄色，因为它们非常古老。在水墨画中，这种颜色是赭石色。赭石是一种带有棕色、黑红色的颜色，有点像咖啡色。之所以是这种颜色，是因为它已经存在了几千年……

姚董：那是一种老化的感觉？

朱伟：是的，完全正确。这是几千年时间的结果，被烟熏过、烧焦过，变成了这个样子。所以，我的画中有很多这种颜色。原因是，当我画当代的事物时，如何证明它们与传统相关呢？首先，从颜色上来说，尽管主题是当代的，但使用的颜色、技法和方法是古人使用的。当人们看着它时，他们觉得它看起来像古典画作，但接着看到手机等物品时，他们立刻就明白了。

姚董：您更愿意收藏家和粉丝称呼您的作品为当代艺术还是水墨画？您更倾向于哪种认同？

朱伟：您的问题真的很专业而精准。为什么呢？如果单纯说到当代艺术，正如您刚才所说，我很高兴大家称我为当代艺术家。但涉及到更棘手的问题时，如果问我，我更愿意说我是水墨画家，因为这证明了它有多难。至于当代艺术家，世界上当代艺术家有很多，完全不缺少，但能把一个特定国家或民族的传统艺术形式，比如水墨画，融入到当代艺术中的人却不多。所以，在这一点上，我更愿意说自己是水墨画家。但这也有风险。作为一名水墨画家，我可能无法将它带入当代领域，或者让这一过程变得更加困难。人们可能会说，“这是混合的一切，既不是当代的，也不是传统的，既不是水墨画，也不是油画，什么都不是。”当我称自己为水墨画家时，实际上是在自找麻烦。

姚董：在您的作品中，传统水墨画和当代艺术之间是否有矛盾？

朱伟：在其中是有一种矛盾的——画作的主题本身就有矛盾，容易陷入传统与当代之间（这会引起冲突）。在西方文化中，艺术家很少会陷入如何将传统与当代融合的这种困境。 当代艺术就是当代的。例如，安迪·沃霍尔，我看他的作品时，看到了纯粹的当代艺术。他不需要有责任或者义务把传统带进来。但是当我画水墨画时，我不能那样做。我不能走得太快，因为如果走得太快，我会把自己与传统拉得太远，最终会得到一个感觉不合适的作品，既不在这里，也不在那里。所以，我必须慢慢走，但也不能停。

姚董：这种思考方式简直是大师级的，困难本身也是信息的一部分。

朱伟：如果我成功了，我就成了大师。这就是我一直在努力的动力——我想做到。如果我没有成功，那么曾经有一个人为了这个困扰了近30年，差不多40年，最终以失败告终。

姚董：传统水墨画和当代艺术之间有哪些相似之处和不同之处？

朱伟：相似之处在于，传统在当时就是当代艺术。例如，著名的《清明上河图》，那是宋代的画作，描绘了当时的街道景象。

姚董：所以，那就是当代艺术。

朱伟：是的，在当时，有些车是由四匹马拉的，有些是六匹马拉的——就像我们说某个是四缸发动机，另一个是六缸发动机。

姚董：是的，我明白了。

朱伟：那时候，它就是当代艺术。然而，当时的杰作，经过几百年甚至几千年的洗礼，已经变成了传统经典。所以，当我们今天看当代作品时，如果它准确地解释了当代——比如安迪·沃霍尔的作品——那么几百年或几千年后，人们会看它并认为，“是的，这就是经典，它是经典。”到那个时候，它就不再是当代艺术了。当代艺术永远是时代的状态，是那个时刻的状态，但最终，今天的杰作将变成经典。

姚董：您现在有徒弟吗？

朱伟：没有，我不敢收徒。我觉得自己还在爬坡阶段，而在这个阶段，你需要轻装上阵。如果我带着别人，他们可能只是模仿我，因为他们总是在看我。如果我失败了，我可能会害了他们。

姚董：在创作过程中，常常会遇到一种我们称之为瓶颈期的现象——创作停滞不前，似乎无法继续前进。您曾经历过这种时期吗？您是如何应对的？

朱伟：我每年都会有瓶颈期，严格来说。有些人可能会说，“这个人从来没有瓶颈，他一直在前进，”但实际上，我是有的。只是我的节奏比较快。其他人的心跳可能是这样的，而我的则更快——所以他们可能会遇到五年的瓶颈，我可以在五周内解决。我不敢拖得太久，因为如果等得太久，可能永远也恢复不了了。

姚董：所以，当您遇到瓶颈时，您一定有转化它的方法。那么，您的转化方法是什么？

朱伟：我有方法。如果我在水墨画上卡住了，我就转向雕塑。做了很多雕塑后，我发现比起我花了很多时间精心创作的水墨画，更多人欣赏我的雕塑。并不是我特别有天赋，而是雕塑是一种国际语言，是一种普遍语言——就像硬通货一样。我创作的水墨画就像中国自己的货币，是否有人兑换取决于他们的心情。但雕塑是全球性的——每个人都能理解，你不需要解释。人们对雕塑的理解远远超出了艺术家的预期。就像油画一样，几代人都在欣赏它，所以当人们看到它时，他们立刻能明白——铜，质感。我意识到这一点，所以现在，每当我在绘画上遇到瓶颈时，我就转向雕塑。有时候，觉得雕塑也让人沮丧时，我就做版画。这是一个平衡。我做了超过三百座雕塑，世界上大多数国家都有展出。人们会说，“停吧，你能看到那些雕像到处都有，甚至在新加坡的许多地方。”我感到有点不好意思继续做下去，否则就像是在抢钱。

姚董：您更喜欢将您的作品称为“作品”还是“画作”？

朱伟：在当代艺术中，它是“作品”。他们不强调绘画，因为当代艺术不专注于画架上的绘画——就像油画一样。最好直接表达您的概念，而不是绘画。如今，很多人更喜欢称其为“作品”，就像您提到的那样。它可以是画作，也可以是装置艺术，甚至是行为艺术——只是你站起来走来走去，就是你的作品。这就是发生的变化。

姚董：我明白了。那么，朱先生，在您的当代艺术作品中，您希望传达什么样的信息？

朱伟：我想传达的是，直到现在，中国有如此悠久的历史。有些人说是三千年，有些人说是五千年——反正它有历史。我希望这个历史能够与现在结合。水墨画在这方面具有最大的优势。正如我们之前提到的，水墨画有很多障碍。如果水墨画能转化为当代艺术，并且全世界的人开始画水墨画，它将立即解决水墨画的创作和表现问题。当我们谈论表现时，说的是你想表达什么。我希望水墨画能成为国际化的，这样每个人都会受益。每个人都将为我表达。我希望他们在宣纸上用水墨画画的每一笔，都会像是我想要表达的东西。有些表达可能是我从未想过的，甚至是几千年前古代中国水墨画家无法想象的事情，全球各地的人们将为我完成这些。

姚董：我明白了，朱先生，水墨画学派的许多大师和艺术家接受这种融合吗？

朱伟：他们不仅不接受，在1990年代，甚至有讨论过笔墨等不等于零的问题。吴冠中先生曾与香港《文汇报》的专栏作家讨论过这个。因为水墨画涉及笔触和技法，吴冠中认为笔墨等于零。实际上，这也是我的想法——不要只看笔触和技法。问题在于，宣纸，说得直白一点，就有点像卫生纸——你控制不了墨水。一旦笔触碰到它，墨水就会洇开来。油画就没有这个问题。几千年来，很多画家说，“我对我的笔法有很大的控制力，”或者“我非常熟练。”他们说的其实是一个物理现象，而不是艺术创作。纸张不成熟，你蘸上一支满墨的毛笔——你能控制它不渗透吗？即使你把它控制在某种程度上，这真的是你的技法吗？这在艺术中有必要吗？没有，它是一个物理现象，不是艺术现象。吴冠中曾与万青力讨论过，万青力认为笔墨意味着一切。经过三十年，我意识到两个人其实是在各自的平台上讨论，他们并没有真正沟通。

姚董：确实。那么，朱先生，我们知道您的作品在东南亚及世界范围内得到了广泛认可，您的作品也在最著名的拍卖行和画廊展出。您认为您的艺术价值的巅峰已达到吗？

朱伟：我还没有达到巅峰。在这次展览之前，我曾说过，这次展览本质上就像一个标点符号，更像是我精细绘画的一次短暂暂停。正如您所说，每个艺术家在创作过程中都会经历瓶颈。对我来说，并不是我达到了瓶颈，而是我选择在这里停下来。我可以说，我已经在将我的工笔和当代风格融入到当代意识和艺术的领域方面做得非常好。有些评论家和一些书籍说朱伟是第一个将工笔引入当代艺术的人，也有人说朱伟把水墨画带到了当代艺术的门口。

姚董：我可以理解为，由于您现在在休息，您的当前作品不会有（未来的展览计划）吗？

朱伟：是有的。这次展览是我近期作品的总结，但明年的展览已经在规划中了。已经有几个展览完全使用新的方法……现在我有经验和能力去解决这些问题。因为我之前的成功，已经有画廊和机构认可了我。所以，当我说我要做实验时，他们相信我。如果我之前没有获得这些认可，如果我去敲门说我想改变，没人会理我。我必须开始——不能再待在这个舒适区了。现在待在舒适区是没有意义的。明年以及未来几年的展览将使用一种新的水墨画形式，主要以黑白小尺寸作品为主，去探索新的东西。就在最近，有画廊问我能否画更大的作品。我说：“不，我只能在手帕大小的纸上画。”他们说：“如果画得更大，人们会更喜欢。”我说：“我无法控制比这个更大的作品，我只能画这么小。”

姚董：为什么您觉得自己无法控制更大的作品？

朱伟：因为我以前不怎么画写意，而且没有人画我现在这种写意。所以我无法控制。我必须去除笔触的痕迹，去除线条，去除……

姚董：我明白了——这是一个探索的过程？

朱伟：是的，完全正确。我正在去除人们对水墨画的传统观念，认为水墨画应该是这样或者那样做。我不遵循这些，完全不遵循。当然，这是一种合理的实验，不是什么迷信的胡说八道，不是那样的。我正在做一些新的尝试，我已经向大家展示过，并且一些媒体也发布了这些作品。人们都说它有效。所以，我正在使用这种新的媒介去创作这一批画作。

姚董：在您的艺术旅程中，您现在对自己的状态感到满意吗？

朱伟：我刚刚找到了表达水墨画的新方式，这种方式能够将水墨画带得更接近当代艺术。但这并不是我作为一个当代艺术家能够独立完成的事情。我现在在做的，就是找到一种方法让别人也能理解它，甚至是外国艺术家，也许他们会以这种方式来画，甚至可能比我做得更好，最终替代我，创作出比我更好的作品。

姚董：这里有一个有趣的现象。在西方，欧洲和美国，他们是否认为您的作品是当代艺术？

朱伟：他们认为我作品的内容是当代艺术，因为当他们看它时，他们理解中国曾经是这样的一个时期。但如果你告诉他们再往前看，告诉他们你是在推动民族艺术，他们没有那个概念。什么叫推动民族艺术？就像说梵高在推广荷兰艺术，这听起来很糟糕。艺术是普遍的。如果你专注于推广某个村庄或者某个国家的艺术，那有什么意义？人们会觉得与梵高、荷兰艺术或油画没有关系，离得很远。至于水墨画，如果你告诉人们：“看，这就是中国几千年的历史。你知道老子吗？老子说……”但他们怎么会知道呢？你问中国的年轻人（他们可能也不知道），因为没有人有时间。你基本上是在用文化把他们推开，这让他们无法欣赏你的艺术。他们连理解都做不到，如果你开始讲故事，那就更糟了。材料本身对他们来说不熟悉，所以他们会与之保持距离。

姚董：朱先生，您创作了许多作品，并深受收藏家的喜爱。您下一阶段想达到什么样的目标，您希望在哪些方面实现突破？

朱伟：这是一个有趣的问题，我想回答它。对于一个艺术家来说，最终有两个他们渴望的结果：他们既想要金钱，也想要声誉，就像相声演员郭德纲说的那样。但我认为艺术创作上的成功应该是你追求的目标。只要作为一个艺术家，你能维持自己的创作，那就足够了。没有人通过艺术家赚了多少钱来衡量他们是否是杰出的艺术家。我们也不会通过一个商人能不能画画来判断他是否是一个成功的商人。例如，商业领域每年都会有排名，有些是中国人做的，有些是外国人做的，各种各样的排名。有没有任何一个排名曾经评定过一个商人，并且说其中的标准之一是商人必须会画画？如果他们不会画画，他们就无法上榜，或者最富有的人必须会画画，如果不会，就不合格？没有人这样评定的，因为这很混乱。所以，对于艺术家来说，衡量标准就是你的艺术创作，而市场的成功不是衡量艺术的因素。有时候艺术家会被社会推着走。因为在某个时期，社会需要填补一个空白（比如三十年前，中国的经济差点崩溃）。社会是由各种因素组成的，包括经济。在过去，这方面有空白，现在大家都在弥补这个空白。很多人认为这最重要，所以大家都在做这个。无论是电影演员还是明星，他们都以赚多少钱或票房成绩高低来衡量自己。但这不是衡量艺术的标准。每个行业都有自己特定的标准，对于艺术家来说，标准就是他们的创作，最终，才是最重要的。几百年或几千年后，没有人会说，八大山人、吴道子，或者梵高，是根据他们活着时有多富有或多贫穷来评定的。梵高死于落魄，但这并不意味着他的画作也落魄。衡量的标准是不同的。

姚董：是的。您之前提到过传统与现代化，也有人提出关于当前人工智能时代的问题。您认为人工智能能取代艺术家吗？

朱伟：我可以明确地告诉你，人工智能不能取代艺术家。即使技术在未来进一步发展，它也永远无法替代人类思维的瞬间表达。拿电影举例，现在电影几乎被视为非物质文化遗产，尽管许多中国艺术家一直在对此做反对，他们想推迟这个过程。因为现在我们有电视，互联网快要取代电视了。然而，人们依然会去电影院欣赏电影，有些人甚至会买票排队看话剧。这种表达，无论人工智能或技术如何进步，都无法替代。例如，人工智能可以创作出比人类更好的画作，但它们缺乏情感。没有人类的触感。我看过人工智能设计的作品，它们美丽、平滑，可以按照你的要求创作任何东西，但其中没有人类的感觉。人工智能没有创作中的犹豫、没有那些情感——有时候你不确定时，你会犹豫，或者感到胆怯。人工智能没有这些。如果你输入一些东西，它也不会把握得住该画多少。

姚董：我明白了。那么，通常需要多长时间才能完成一件作品？

朱伟：有时候，完成一幅画可能需要超过两年的时间，尤其是大的作品。另一方面，有时候我可以在一天之内完成一幅小画。

姚董：为什么会有这么大的差异？

朱伟：因为有时候我会突然有了灵感，我可以从早到晚一直画，直到睡觉前把作品完成。但当我在画一些我熟悉的东西时，我可能画一会儿就会感到疲倦，休息一下，喝点东西，甚至喝一瓶啤酒。那时很困难；你只是试图完成这幅画。然而，当灵感来临时，我可以在很短的时间内完成它。多年后，当我回头看时，我不会觉得它粗糙或缺乏细节，因为每一笔都是经过精心考虑的。那一刻的灵感——我以前不相信它，但现在我真心相信灵感是存在的。

姚董：是的。我们经常与许多粉丝和朋友聊天，他们认为一幅画卖得越贵，作为收藏品就越有价值，也就意味着这位艺术家是最棒的。您如何看待这种普遍的理解？

朱伟：这取决于你的视角。正如我之前提到的，如果我们用衡量成功企业家的标准——基于排名或类似的因素——来衡量艺术家，那就是一个完全不同的范畴。如果你专注于艺术创作，那就是另一种排名。企业家也是如此。如果你根据成功的标准来排名，那是一个榜单，比如马云排在最前面。但如果你说企业家必须也擅长绘画，那又是另一个榜单。

姚董：这取决于你怎么看待它。

朱伟：是的。有些企业家能够画画，而且还擅长书法，但在他们的商业生涯中，可能是失败者——他们破产过六次。所以，衡量标准取决于你用什么来衡量成功。每一个东西都会有人替你梳理它。

朱伟：我不会说我成功了。我很幸运，至少现在我可以把所有的精力集中在绘画上，还能维持生计。那真的是很幸运。2018年，四川美术学院邀请我……他们邀请了十几位来自不同领域的当代艺术家，而我代表了水墨画。他们邀请我在他们的小剧场演讲，虽然叫做“小”剧场，但其实有几千人。那时我讲了关于艺术创作的内容，其中有一句话是：如果你上大学只是为了拿到一个学位，只是为了说自己学过艺术，拿到一个文凭作为凭证，那么你根本不需要听我讲。我当时说，那天很冷，是11月，但如果你想成为一名艺术家，并且有信心，那么就再坚持一会儿。我还说，如果你想成为艺术家，你需要创作出一件好作品。否则，你怎么能称自己为艺术家呢？导演也是一样。如果你说自己是伟大的导演，那你的电影在哪里？它可以是票房大卖，或者获得奖项。艺术也是如此。艺术家需要创作一件好作品。什么是好作品呢？我认为有三个标准可以用来评价——这些可以适用于任何形式的艺术创作。首先是主题——你想要画的题材。例如，在古典艺术中，艺术家们画的是上帝，赞美上帝。像米开朗基罗、拉斐尔和达芬奇等艺术家，他们认为他们的主要任务、他们的主题，就是荣耀上帝，他们做得非常美丽。

姚董：主题。

朱伟：嗯，那就是题材——荣耀上帝。有些也反映了现代主题。例如，现代艺术中有梵高，他是来挑战古典艺术的。古典艺术注重完美的笔触，几乎将场景画得像照片一样。但到了梵高的时代，发生了变化。他想加入个人的风格——他的笔触几乎是神经质的，最终，这种风格得到了认可。题材与古典画家的不同。他们画的是上帝，而他画的是普通人——他的兄弟，他的妹妹——那就是主题。

当谈到当代艺术时，以安迪·沃霍尔为例。他使用了罐装汤这样的物品，那是你常在超市看到的东西，就像我们常吃的榨菜——它的品牌是鱼泉还是涪陵？在日常生活中，我们经常看到它们，也不觉得有什么特别。但他并不是这样看待它们。他拍摄了这些物品，把它们排列好，挂在墙上。人们看了之后会说：“哇，艺术离我们如此之近。”那就是题材上的突破。

第二点是技巧。你知道，油画有700年的历史，而水墨画有2700年的历史。随着时间的推移，它们发展出了各种技巧，其中一些技巧执行得如此出色，几乎无法超越。但你也许会说，“我想在技巧上突破，我想超越它。”这可能吗？是的，可能。杰尔哈德·里希特就是一位在技巧上有所突破的当代艺术家。在摄影术发明之后，艺术家们发现自己生存的机会变少了。过去，艺术家们画的是他们所看到的，如果画得像生活，他们就被认为是优秀的艺术家。现在，照片可以瞬间捕捉一切——清晰而逼真。而且，模特们不需要坐几个月。这是一个技术问题。里希特，现如今排名第一，他能在技巧上有所突破。怎么做到的呢？例如，过去如果照片模糊，那通常被认为是错误的。就像我们现在聊天时，那边的焦点偏了，那个视频肯定不能用。但里希特做了相反的事情：他故意画模糊的照片。在摄影中，模糊的照片被认为是劣质的，摄影师会受到批评。而里希特画模糊的照片却成为了一种语言，一种挑战摄影标准的语言。这为绘画创造了一个新的位置。

在他之前，还有另一位现代艺术家，毕加索，他也被摄影逼入了死角。他创造了立体主义。然后是康定斯基和杜尚。立体主义，就是毕加索把一个人的耳朵和后脑勺画在前面。摄影是做不到的。如果你在技巧上成功了，就像里希特那样，你就成了第一。里希特现在92岁了，至今没有任何艺术家超越他的价格。

我们之前谈到了题材，然后是技巧。第三点是媒介——表达的媒介。你用什么来表达你成功的技巧和出人意料的主题？这就是媒介。对我来说，我的媒介是水墨画，使用宣纸。对油画艺术家来说，他们的媒介是画布和油画。但当代艺术家们正在解决这个问题。有些艺术家根本不使用传统材料。杜尚拿了一个小便池，把它放进博物馆，让观众去思考什么是媒介，什么是材料。所以，在媒介上，他突破了，艺术评论家和策展人接受了它。正如我之前所说，在当代艺术中，定义的权力掌握在评论家的手中，他们是第一个突破绘画评价标准的人，他们认为，如果你把一个小便池放进博物馆，它就变成了当代艺术。它被认为是优秀的当代艺术，每个人都对你的当代艺术和理念鞠躬致敬。因为理念是最重要的——任何人只要练习画画，就可以成为艺术家。正如安迪·沃霍尔所说，任何人都可以成为艺术家，而且还有一个时间框架，15分钟的名声。

所以有三件事：题材、技巧和媒介。如果你发明了一种新媒介，你发明了一种不使用宣纸或墨水的方式，但人们仍然认为它是水墨画。如果那样发生，那个人真的很了不起。到目前为止，还没有人能做到不用宣纸画水墨画；如果他们这样做，那就不再是水墨画了。那将是水彩画，画在纸板上。

姚董：是的，的确如此。

朱伟：所以，这三点——如果你想成为艺术家，你必须在这三方面之一有所突破。日夜思考这三问——其中的任何一个……艺术不需要三者同时达到，甚至不需要两者达到；只要在其中一个方面有所突破（就足够了）。以里希特为例。他只是在第二个问题——技巧上突破，便成了大师。而全世界都认可这一点——如果他随便画一幅抽象作品，它就会成为世界上最贵的作品之一，因为那实在是太稀有了。

姚董：您有没有崇拜的艺术家？

朱伟：有，我崇拜里希特。

姚董：我明白了。今天非常高兴采访到著名的当代艺术家朱伟。临近节目的尾声，我们希望您能给在凤凰网关注我们的粉丝和朋友们送上些祝福和寄语。

朱伟：我相信欣赏当代艺术需要思考。你需要用眼睛、用经验、用积累来审视当代艺术。不管是当代艺术还是任何艺术作品，只要你用你的判断和经验，我相信它总是正确的。不要用耳朵去听，不要先听别人告诉你这是什么，然后再形成自己的理解。如果你没有先入为主的观念或固定的概念去接近它，只有那样，你才能欣赏到当代艺术。否则，你可能会反复回头看它，怀疑为什么你的印象和别人的看法不同。所以，用眼睛去看，不要先听——先看，先欣赏，多欣赏。

Link: IFENG.com 凤凰网